Anyone find it ridicolous how active of a fighter Ali was? Why did he fight so much?

I kind of get the feeling that you have watched little to no Ali fights. Mostly highlights, perhaps?

The thing is that 60's Ali could clinch well when he felt the need. He did so for example against the two strongest fighters of the era - Liston and Chuvalo, both stronger than Frazier. Cooper actually remarked how much better Ali became at this between their first and second fight, so it might be something he really started to develop for the Liston fight. Anyhow, he could do it when he needed during his first reign.

The difference is that he still had such speed and stamina that he didn't need to do it as much as he did in the 70's. But as I said, when he felt the need he could do it against the strongest and roughest of the era. And if an early '64 Ali could do it against Liston, an almost five years older and more mature version could do it against Frazier. That's pretty undebatable, I think.

Also, where did you get the notion that there was as much holding in the third Frazier as in the second? The difference is actually quite big, since Padilla came down on it much harder than Perez did. The third is pretty much like the first in regards to holding.

 

Top post.

 

Thanks!

There's so much mythology around Ali that somewhat fictionalised narratives seem to overtake what there is on film. That certainly was the case before Youtube. I remember when I got the VHS-tape of Ali-Foreman and watched it in it's entirety for the first time and just was astonished by how different it was compared to what I had been led to believe.

I thought that Ali would just get pummelled for eight rounds and then land that right on a tiring Foreman, and while he did take some good ones for sure it was actually Ali doing the better work in just about every round. But the story of Ali just absorbing everything before finally torpedoing Foreman was just too good to let facts interfere, I suppose.

The same has come to be the case when comparing the 60's and 70's version to some degree. With the 60's version being faster but lacking physicality. Actually, Ali was one of the bigger fighters of that era and could be quite physical when he wanted to. He faced the biggest and strongest and was never outmuscled.

 

Padilla even took to slapping Ali’s gloves to break clinches. Mid round rest periods for either man? Carlos was having none of it.

Carlos “made” the fight almost as much as Ali and Frazier, and likely made it a lot more of a fight than Ali would’ve preferred. Lol.

If anyone’s interested, I recalled this terrific little article (see below) detailing Padilla’s recollection from in and around The Thrilla and a summation of his career otherwise.

https://www.rappler.com/sports/boxing/107436-carlos-padilla-thrilla-in-manila/

 

Thanks! Good read.

Interesting with his point that fewer clinches didn't benefit Frazier because Ali used the time to punch him. Of course, the reverse is also true.

Maybe it would have been better for both with a more Perez like performance, but it sure wouldn't have made the fight such a classic.

 

Ali needed to clinch more when he first fought Frazier, but he didn’t. What makes you think he would make the adjustment mid-fight in the 60’s he didn’t in ’71? He fell victim to believing he simply couldn’t lose - he was too special in his own eyes. I don’t see how Ali two or three years earlier would fight any wiser. He was quicker before the layoff (though the degree to which this has been exaggerated is mind blowing) & sharper all-round, but that was also whilst sharing a ring with Chuvalo, Terrell, the ghost of Williams. Frazier’s gonna have something to say about just how good Ali really is at any juncture in their careers.

All said, since I still give Ali a more or less 50% chance of winning this fight, I’d be interested to know what you think Frazier’s odds would be.

Regarding the holding, well no one could ever hug in a fight as much as Ali did in their second match…that’s an impossible level of cheap spoiling to live upto. Ali certainly didn’t forget its effectiveness in Manila, though. Padilla was very tough on Ali - LOL. I can remember all the points he deducted. Very tough indeed.

 

I really wonder how much you have watched these. There were certainly clinches in the first one, but Mercanta was also more keen to break them up than Perez was. And there were other differences between that and the rematch than holding, like Ali taking a more aggressive approach in the first and throwing everything he had at Frazier for the first four and then tiring, while he moved and flurried more in the rematch.

But if you actually watch the fights, which you can't have done much since you didn't know the big difference between the second and third in regards to holding, you can see Ali clinching in the 60's. Good thing to do instead of sticking to narratives.

You can also just take Cooper's word for it (from Facing Ali): "The second fight he learned. He would stand no nonsense. I could not mess around inside. I've never been held so bleedin' tight in my life."

And this was Ali at his lightest in any title fight, only 201 lbs.

You never know what would have happened on a given night, but we can say these things for quite sure:

• Ali could smother bigger and stronger men than Frazier (Liston, Chuvalo) already in the 60's.
• Frazier was still developing in 1968.
• This version of Ali would be better than any version we got to see if he kept up his discipline.

That's why the most likely outcome in late 1968 would be an Ali win imo. I'll leave it at that.

 

I watch his fights. I didn’t address your backhander the first time because I prefer the high road - still do even as you try to push for a reaction. If we’re taking fighters’ own words for it then so be it. Here’re Ali’s immediately after the fight in 1971…

Reporter: “Muhammad, if you’d fought him three years earlier—”

Ali: “I think he woulda whupped me quicker, because I wasn’t as strong as I am now. Don’t hit as hard as I do now.”

 

I think its largely a byproduct of being a champ for a long time if you reign for awhile you will have periods of rapid fire title defenses. Most champs do not hold the belt long enough for that to happen. But the ones who do usually have a few of those wild 5 and 6 fight years with some less active ones. And Ali had those years too in 65,67,70,74,77 and 78 Ali fought twice and in 64 he fought once.

Obviously some of said years that wasn't his fault. And the extent he was more active than another champ in his shoes(cough Holmes cough) it could be chalked up to having been forced to miss 3 of his prime years. After that Ali probably A)wanted to make up for missed time and B)acheive as much as he could quickly in the event his title was stripped again. Champs in their prime who are strategically picking their fights aren't going to have the mindset Ali did upon his return. Louis missed even more time but he already had 21 title defenses and made the record book his personal diary.

Foreman was more active than Ali up until his career paused. Foreman was a more active contender than Ali and in 73 and 74 Foreman fought 4 times which is more than Ali did his first 2 title years. After his sabatical 76 he was back to 4 fights in 1976 before his first retirement.

 

He had an entourage " to provide for" and if he wasn't consistently in the gym he ballooned up to 270 or so pounds.

 

Couple of reasons, one already mentioned was he had an entourage he had to support, and 2. He craved attention..

 

I've said on many post on this site Ali's physical strength is vastly underrated by most who simply watched highlights and not his fights in their entirety.
It's like so many have the opnion that Ray Leonard was a stylist in the vain of Howard Davis Jr.
I guess they get that idea from the Hagler fight.
But most of his career Leonard was more aggressive brawler with lightning speed than slick boxer. He could move when he choose too, and was exceptional behind the jab.
But most of his early career, he was not just trying to win, but trying to knock out everyone he faced. His killer instinct was 2nd to none.

 

Top poster as well.

 

Not strength per se but Ali was anything but soft. I remember hearing or reading that Ken Norton said when he hit Ali to the body it was like hitting a piece of cement. He was solid, which means a layer of thick, tough muscle.

 

You'll see no argument to the contrary from me! But over and above that he's a nice bloke to go with it. Goo's another good fella. They've been here forever and rarely if ever have drama.