The fallacy of Ali's "prime"

Wlad could’ve beaten everyone Frazier fought and yes that includes Muhammad Ali. IMO .

 

We missed out on his physical prime .. from 64 to 67 he was getting bigger and much stronger and more experienced without losing any of his speed of hand or foot ... he was on an upward trajectory and only 25 or so when forced into exile ...

 

Ali’s first career heaviest weight was 214 1/2 lbs for the first Chuvalo fight.

Though still mobile, it seemed Ali didn’t dance as much at that weight and he was setting himself more to punch.

That combined with the extra weight saw Ali hitting that much harder a fact which might’ve been lost a bit in translation because it was the impervious chin of Chuvalo he was banging on.

Solid proof that post exile was deteriorated was the fact that the Chuvalo rematch was that much more competitive than the first fight.

Clearly, Chuvalo hadn’t somehow improved, rather, Ali had clearly slowed down somewhat.

I firmly believe that the 66 Chuvalo version of Ali clearly beats FOTC Frazier, dishing out an even worse beating on Joe without having to periodically break from the action due to his more limited post exile stamina - as was the actual case when he fought Joe in 71.

 

Mike already had a loss on his record, no?

 

The reason Ali couldn't sustain the hand and foot speed was he had Smokin Joe Frazier in his grill all night long. Ali began to wilt mid fight when he just couldn't keep Joe off and Ali landed enough on Joe to take out 3 heavyweights that night. That version of Frazier beats any version of Ali.

 

I believe you are one of the most insightful posters here so I'll ask you to consider a counterfactual;. He was a more cunning fighter in his second career but if he was fighting in 68, 69, and 70 that cunning would have been married to elite athleticism and reflexes that wane with age.

 

He was too much a waterbug slapping around has beens and never weres.

I prefer the version that settled down, used his leverage, sat on his punches, made traps for his opponents. Frazier, Norton, Quarry, Foreman... those were pelts.

 

It didn't help when he fought the Japanese wrestler who kept kicking Ali in the legs throughout the whole idiotic and sordid affair. I don't like the godification of Ali because he did so many stupid things too.

 

Can you imagine if Ali forced Inoki to fight under boxing rules in a sanctioned match like Floyd did to McGregor?

 

I always said that Mahomet's best performance was his losing effort at FOTC.

 

Thad Spencer, Manuel Ramos, Johnny Persol, Eduardo Coletti, Leotis Martin, Gregorio Peralta, Al Jones, Jose Manuel Urtain and Jose Luis Garcia. Yeah, some wouldn't provide for the best HW resume ever, but they were all ranked contenders at one point or another, and if Brian London could get a shot, why couldn't they ? Ali had openly stated that he wanted to be busy and active because he wanted his reign to resemble Louis', he could have easily used them as tune up fights.

In the meantime, he could have also fought some guys he would go on to face later on, like Quarry, Ellis, Foster, Lewis and rematched the likes of Chuvalo, Patterson or even Liston. Hell, he may have even fought Frazier before 1971 as well. Then he could have fought Foreman, Norton, Lyle, Shavers, Bugner, Young, Wepner and some fringe contenders he missed out on in the 70's. The available opposition was all there.

 

Do you think the 73 Ali was better than the 67 ? I understand you prefer him but he also clearly lost to Frazier once at that time, very conceivably Norton twice and was getting hit far more often. What is to be remembered about Ali was that he was never a highly skilled boxer from a defensive standpoint but a natural reflex freak and when those reflexes diminished he won on default skills but as a result took far more punishment .. I think in the Bonavena fight he was hit more in one night than in his previous career before ..

 

Yes, he was a better fighter.

And Frazier and Norton were better than anyone he faced in the 60's, in the form he faced them.

 

Interesting, you feel the 1973 version of Ali was better than the 67.