Joe Frazier does not beat AJ and you can't convince any reasonable person otherwise

Fair enough. Ali got dropped by Banks and Cooper. His chin wouldn't stand up to the likes of Foreman and Liston.

Frazier was more than a little past prime against Foreman. Their's a reason he took a year off after TFOTC, and made two laughable defenses against Daniels and Stander. Bouts in which the public noticed he was "slipping".

Just ridiculous. It's not as simple as that. If all one needed to do to beat Frazier was be bigger than him, and hold him when he got close he'd have a lot more losses on his record.

Ali had all of these advantages over Foreman as well. Didn't seem to help him when they had to step in the ring though. Go figure.

Foreman's uppercuts were far more unconventional, and because of his angles, it worked out well for him.

Interesting. Would you favor guys like Bruno and Ruddock over Frazier as well based on this premise? Both were more powerful than AJ as well.

Well actually, he briefly stunned Foreman in the first bout with a left hook which is when Foreman really started the grabbing.

 

Ali only “figured” him out in the 2nd fight by having a lenient referee allow the excessive holding and grabbing behind the neck, in Manila with a stricter referee he couldn’t keep Frazier off until Frazier’s own blindness caught up to him.

 

I'd agree that seeing a <6', <210 swarmer in the HW division will be rare if not already a thing of the past, never to be seen again.

However, if you were to replace Joe Frazier's name with, say, Mike Tyson's, in the title of this thread, I'd bet massive money on almost every responding poster calling the OP out for being plain mad.

 

Good point. I do see AJ-Tyson as a completely different matchup though. Tyson was just a bit bigger & stronger than Frazier, had a much more complete arsenal, and was faster of hand (maybe) & foot (definitely) as well IMO. Mike probably gets the job done against AJ. Not so sure about Frazier, especially if the ref allows continuous clinching.

 

I'm not saying Joe is a better fighter than Mike but Mike is appreciably larger and stronger.

 

He gets up my arse. He's gonna be out.

 

Fair enough.

I'd agree that Tyson had more of an armory but, at the same time, I have no doubt that Frazier was a better-integrated machine, combining all of his assets into a seamless 'The whole is far greater than the sum of its parts' kind of way.

I don't think there is much in it, in terms of raw speed and Tyson's speed is accentuated due to the way he put his well-executed combinations together. But power goes to Tyson, which is a big factor generally, but perhaps not one that necessarily matters so much against Joshua. AJ is quick to become discombobulated under pressure and also doesn't react too well to modest power landing cleanly.

In the simplest of terms and size-differential notwithstanding, I think that Joshua is always at risk of being overcome by a superior fighter, who comes to fight and takes the fight to him. I think Frazier represents all of those things and is a real problem for Joshua, even though I can see the size challenge being why many would be hesitant to align with that view.

 

I’d agree that Tyson beats AJ too fast and hits way to hard and with Femis weak chin he’d be toast

Frazier doesn’t have as strong a chin as Tyson, doesn’t hit as hard, isn’t as strong and tends to start slow it wouldn’t be an easy fight for AJ but you can’t overlook someone who hits as hard as he does is about 7 inches taller and 30 or so lbs heavier

Reading all the arguments for Frazier on this thread still hasn’t convinced me he’d win

 

Very good assessment, and the weaknesses you pointed out in AJ are exactly what give me doubts here. AJ did manage to overcome some adversity against Wlad, but completely unraveled against Ruiz, which is what sticks for a lot of people.

The size difference is always a big factor for me in this one though. AJ is a chiseled 6'6" 250ish Heavyweight, where Frazier was 5'11", 205-210. It'll probably be Frazier lunging in with the hook, which is the only danger punch for AJ, and AJ tying up, not allowing Joe to work inside. AJ probably does enough damage from range while Joe is trying to work his way in to take this.

I do understand some of the arguments for Frazier though, and maybe I'm seeing this wrong. AJ isn't the most reliable to stay composed, or gut out a fight when the going gets tough, which is possible here.

 

Liston barely landed anything clean on Ali's chin, same with Foreman. With that being said, Ali's chin did improve over that decade or so period. we have several fights to use as an example in which he took what we'd think to be harder shots from harder punchers. its harder to make that case for Joe though. never really saw him go against guys with more power than Bonavena and eat their shots like Ali did. I cant imagine 70s Ali going down or even really being hurt by the lefts that Banks and Cooper dropped him with, but I can imagine a prime Frazier at the very least being heavily hurt by the right hand Bonavena initially dropped him with.

slipping but certainly not gone. just don't think he was nearly past it enough for it to be used to discredit what Foreman did in Jamaica.

obviously that's an over simplification. I'm saying Joshua would just need to do what he usually does, but put more focus on holding Joe whenever he's close. not every big guy would be able to do that and win the fight, because not every big guy is as good as Joshua.

Ali wasn't a 6'6 250lb power puncher

true, though I don't think all of Foreman's successful uppercuts on Frazier came from weird angles. some were just good timing

I wouldn't favour them no, but they could certainly hurt him. and while I'd agree Bruno has more raw power than Joshua, I'd say AJ shot for shot hits harder than Ruddock.
and as to why I'd favour Joshua over Frazier but not Ruddock and Bruno, its because I'd consider him to be a better fighter than them overall. and he's also bigger than them lol.

I don't recall this but I'll rewatch the fight and take a look

 

It would not be like the Foreman fight. They have totally different mentalities and the only things they have in common are being big guys who like to go for the KO. Joshua was more of a boxer puncher and Foreman (in the 70's) was primarily a seek and destroy slugger who sometimes fought behind his jab and boxed a bit. Oh one more thing: both are good body punchers. Joshua is more of a classic textbook European style boxer with plenty of amateur tutelage and a more modest stance and a higher guard. Foreman used his "mummy" stance and was a lot more physical literally grabbing guys, pushing them, turning them, swatting their punches away like a trainer with mitts, etc, before unloading heavy bombs.

These differences are highlighted in the way they dealt with smaller opponents. Foreman liked to keep his man at mid range planting his feet ring center and would refuse to let them smother him. He would throw that heavy jab, push then back, and launch uppercuts. We saw this against Frazier, Scrap Iron Johnson, etc.

Joshua preferred bringing the fight to the shorter man and imposing his will. Against Takam he would stalk him, back him up to the ropes with jabs and 1-2's, and then would start throwing heavy leather to pressure Takam, backs off retreating into his high guard to conserve energy, then pressures him again. The idea wasn't bad: he often prevented the shorter opponent from getting into a rhythm and was forced to fight on the backfoot. Also unlike Foreman, Joshua was willing to take a step back or engage with Takam exchanging up close sometimes. He only attempted about 4 flicking jabs to the body, landing 2 of them (in contrast Foreman loved landing pulverizing hooks and uppers to the body).

Against Povetkin, Joshua was a bit lighter on his feet and respected him more than Takam. But Joshua was still bringing the fight to the shorter man and exchanging up close many times. His defense was pretty bad against Povetkin and he got nailed by so several hooks and uppercuts. However, Joshua was able to land some big right hands and stop the fight by the midway point.


Frazier is a different beast altogether. Although Frazier was smaller than both, he had the scrappy attitude, stamina, and workrate of Takam x5, and he had the technique and powerful hooks of Povetkin. At his peak, Frazier also brought good head movement and tremendous body punching skills to the table.

How I see it:


Joshua vs Frazier


Power: Joshua
Speed: Frazier
Chin: Joshua
Technique: Joshua
Stamina: Frazier
Footwork: Joshua
Versatility: Joshua
Timing: Frazier
Accuracy: Frazier
Combinations: Joshua
Body shots: Even
Ring IQ: Joshua
Offense: Joshua
Defense: Frazier
Heart: Frazier

8-1-6 advantage Joshua

I think in this matchup Joshua is going to have his hands full. If there's a strict ref and the ring isn't too big, Joshua will feel like no matter where he looks, Frazier will be there. The main problems for Joshua is that while Joshua is bigger, hits harder and is more athletic, Frazier is bringing some very hard to overlook intangibles such as his bobbing and weaving defense, excellent timing, accuracy, etc.

Joshua has the ability to win, but it really is up to him. If he can't bomb Frazier out early, does he hold up to the non-stop pressure of Frazier...? Joshua's stamina is worse and as we saw in the Povetkin and Takam fights, he can get tagged plenty by smaller opponents and doesn't have a ramrod jab, short range uppercut, or manhandling tactics to keep Frazier off of him. And if he isn't allowed to clinch, that makes things even worse. On the flip side, Frazier might have serious trouble getting past the heavy combinations of Joshua and would be very uncomfortable being pressed backwards if Joshua steps to him.

Verdict: I think Joshua clearly takes an early lead harassing Frazier with his jab, footwork, and imposing his will with combinations making Frazier back up. By the 5th, Frazier has some swelling, has been dropped, and is frustrated that he can't get close. But by the 7th, Frazier has gotten his rhythm going and is starting to bob under and around Joshua's jab, nailing him with body shots. Joshua tries right hands and hooks upstairs but they sail right over Frazier's head as he presses in and throws sharp hooks to Joshua's jaw and temple. In the 9th, Joshua is docked a point for excessive holding and is gasping for air. Desperate, he manages to nail Frazier with a big right hand, rocking him, but Frazier is all over Joshua who is forced to cover up to trt and save his energy. In the 10th, Frazier rocks Joshua with a big hook and is swarming all over him and Joshua takes a knee, waiting for the full 8 count. At this point, the scorecard is starting to tilt in Frazier's favor and Joshua is lethargic from all the brutal body shots and breathing heavily. Joshua puts up a high guard blocking and gives the round away. In the 11th, Frazier is at full throttle weaving around Joshua's cumbersome blows and landing whatever he wants, when suddenly Joshua explodes with a 1-2 right to the head. Frazier goes down hard, but is up on wobbly legs at the count of 7. Joshua throws everything he can at Frazier belting him with a barrage of shots before Frazier goes down again and Frazier's corner throws in the towel.


*Analysis: Joshua's lack of commitment to body punching, neglecting the uppercut, his inferior gas tank, and leaky defense nearly costs him the fight. He takes an early lead with his good movement, technique, and versatility, but gera dragged into deep waters in an ugly fight. Joshua's raw power, size, and desperation bails him out.

 

Currently working right now. I’ll respond either later or more likely tomorrow. Excellent post and good debate.

 

It might not be as simple as that, but AJ's clinching could play a huge role in this fight. Just thinking back to Frazier's fights during his title reign...Bonavena, Mathis, Ellis, Quarry, Foster, and Zyglewicz...generally speaking, these opponents laid in close-quarters with Joe an awful lot, allowing Frazier to work inside and do a lot of damage. Even Ali, who clinched a lot in TFOTC, decided to have the occasional prolonged exchange with Joe, which is how he got himself in trouble in the 11th.

Not seeing AJ making that same mistake. He either pushes him off, or clinches immediately, every time Joe gets near him. Think Bonecrusher tying up Tyson every time he got close, but while also throwing effective punches from range in between. That's how I imagine this fight could look. Joe loves working inside. Take that away, and he's not nearly as effective. Maybe it's my imagination, but clinching generally seems to be a bigger part of the game in recent years than it was in the 60s & 70s, and that's a problem for a smaller swarmer like Frazier against some of the giants of recent years. Wlad, for example, would have had 2 arms and 2 legs wrapped around Joe every time he got within 4 feet. Makes a big difference.

Get a ref in there who doesn't tolerate clinching, and you probably have a completely different fight.

 

It's hardly outrageous to pick AJ. In all the talk about uppercuts it's being forgotten how many dozens of straight rights Ali bounced off his face. AJ throws that right hand string straight and any man he catches clean with it is sure going to know it. Ali had very respectable power in the right hand but AJ is three levels up. He can move for a big guy too as shown in the Ruiz rematch. Frazier would have to bore in all night and attach his nose to Joshua's chest. I highly doubt he's going to beat Joshua down in a hurry or one punch him either.

 

Of course, it isn't outrageous to pick Joshua, but when have we ever seen him move anything like, or throw right hand leads like Ali. He neither has the speed nor the accuracy nor the volume of Ali and not one of Joshua's targets have moved anything like Frazier. Ali was one of a few to break into Frazier's rhythm and probably the only one to achieve this in Frazier's prime.

The size difference is a mountain to climb, for sure, but references to what Ali was able to achieve against Frazier, in relation to Joshua are misplaced, in my opinion. Joshua is basic, with a leaky defense, who's going to be challenged by the pace that Frazier can set and continue to run with for 15 rounds, whereas Joshua is a "new breed of heavyweight" and "not a 12-round fighter".