Joe Frazier does not beat AJ and you can't convince any reasonable person otherwise

Good Analysis.

The attention to body punching is an interesting point. Though, I wonder if the size difference combined with Frazier's tendency to dip from the waist would deter such an approach - especially, as we can reasonably assume that Frazier would be looking to time Joshua and throw his left over the top of AJ's right, at any given opportunity.

Also - Genuine question: Why do you score both 'Ring IQ' and 'Footwork' to Joshua?

 

I think that's a valid point I should've included. Frazier dipping at the waist and rolling about would make him a very hard target for the large, long-limbed Joshua and it would make body punching difficult. I think the reason Joshua didn't even attempt that many body shots against Takam and Povetkin is because he didn't want to give up his height/reach advantages and could get nailed going for them. However, against Frazier failing to do so could potentially lead to his downfall. Sure you can go for head shots against Frazier, but if you don't manage to KO him, his gas tank will rev at full throttle and ensures he stays in the fight all night applying pressure.

I rated Joshua's ring IQ higher because he would actually try to address and solve problems in the middle of the match and make adjustments. For instance, going to the body then head to rattle Pulev when regular punches weren't working. Or becoming more cautious after being nailed by Wladmir and finding a way to break down the ex champ. Frazier wasn't a particularly smart fighter with high ring IQ, he was a pitbull who was trained to stalk and bit down hard.

As for footwork, well, go watch the Povetkin and Ruiz fights. Joshua could be light on his feet with good lateral movement when he chose to do so (for a big man). He was no Ali of course, but his footwork was decent enough to give Frazier problems and take advantage of his long reach to stay out of harm's way (at least, early on when he's fresh). Frazier had fast hands but his feet weren't and he wasn't great at cutting off the ring, but was good at stalking and pressuring.

 

Bruno and Ruddock though don't have Joshua's credentials as a puncher. It's maybe possible they hit as hard but Joshua has stopped opponents renowned for their durability,
He was the first to stop Wallin
first to stop Povetkin
and kayoed the extremely durable Kevin Johnson who Fury, Vitali, Hrgovic, Dubois all failed to stop.
I don't see similar credentials for Ruddock and Bruno whose most famous kayoes were over a badly faded Coetzee and Dokes both of whom had been kayoed multiple times prior were out of shape and didn't do anything of note aftewards.

 

Fair enough.

The footwork question? Meh. They use their footwork differently but Frazier's footwork, while good, is confined within his catch and kill approach, whereas Joshua adds more variety to his and he moves well for a big man, for sure. It might cause Frazier problems but, then again, Frazier could cover distance quickly and I think this would put the use of Joshua's feet to the test.

Not sure I'm convinced by the Ring IQ argument, though. Frazier's entire game was intelligent pressure. His ferocity might well have looked straightforward-come-forward, but Frazier was always calculating, learning from his opponent's reactions to his assaults, getting inside his opponent's rhythm and cultivating improved routes to success. Frazier , for the most part, was also in a constant state of awareness and he almost always successfully imposed his fight strategy on his opponent.

Joshua changing things mid-fight is not necessarily his Ring IQ but him just following instructions from his corner, on which he relies a lot. He's very what I would call textbook-driven. Nothing about Joshua strikes me as him being innately innovative about his boxing or him being aware in the moment. His comments post-Usyk 1 being a case in point, whereby he strongly implied that he he'd felt like he was fighting the fight of his life in there.

I'd have to give Ring IQ to Frazier.

 

"Sensibly" and the OP seem to have little in common with one another.

 

I’m fully of the believe that this ‘modern super heavyweight’ thing is overhyped and have always thought Usyk would beat Fury and AJ erc, however when you’re a pressure fighter who is basically a cruiser like Joe was… walking into Joshua’s firepower. I don’t know if that ends too well for him, then again if Fraizer can get into the middle rounds and start tagging AJ, it’s ending with Joshua on his back. Good fight

 

AJ wouldn't get up once after Foreman put him down let alone 6 times, and if by an actual miracle Ruiz knocked Frazier down twice Frazier would be grinning as he keeps the pressure on, the body shots would be too much as the rounds go on and by 8 or 9 Ruiz would be taking a beating similar to Ramos

 

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5'11

 

To be fair, that was, somewhat ironically, shaping up to be a fairly impressive Am performance from Joshua - until he got caught.

 

What fight were you watching fanboy

 

He doesn't have to move or throw a right hand like Ali tho. He has miiiiiiiiiles more power than Ali and he doesn't need to land dozens and dozens of right hands to end the night here. There's always been question marks on Frazier with regards to punchers and the questions are hardly unfair. Joshua is also not some prehistoric caveman that can't fight at all. Guys like Joe Bugner had Frazier in big trouble with single right hands when they could land them. There's absolutely a chance Frazier is somewhat like Norton and has an excellent chin.......up to a certain power point. What bonafide fighters did he fight with massive power? Despite his resume there's just as many questions on Fraziers end here.

Joshua's gone past 10 rounds half a dozen times. We can argue not against Fraziers pace but Fraziers pace only matters if he's not already stopped.

Personally i don't think Frazier matches up as good as guys like Holmes, Ali, Foreman and co against the big new breed. Like Tyson he only has one gear but Tyson has explosive one punch KO power in both fists and great speed. I fear Frazier is a bit one dimensional and undergunned against some of the better behemoths.

 

Absolute peak FOTC Frazier clobbers him. Anything off peak Frazier, I’m less confident because even though Frazier was the absolute “greater fighter” as far as the ATG rankings, this is not an optimal matchup for him.

 

5'11 just like 88 Tyson who would have likely ended AJ's career, it's commonly mentioned how he wasn't the same after the Ruiz loss, imagine him taking a beating like Ribalta did

 

That's fair enough JT - But, if it's simply a matter of power differential that you want to emphasize here, then the number of times Ali landed on Frazier is immaterial.

The difference in power between Joshua and Ali is obvious. Joshua is a power puncher - it goes without saying. If he lands clean on Frazier it's a problem for Frazier, of course. But I question whether Joshua could get his best shots off on Frazier, sufficient to cause the kind of catastrophic results required to end the fight.

The other implication of emphasizing the repeated successes of Ali is that it gives the impression that Frazier was easy to hit and often. He wasn't - and few, if any, could deliver on Frazier the kind of crisp output Ali was able to produce. And, while I don't consider Joshua a "caveman" and have not hinted at such, he's a long way from a Muhammad Ali - and, I'll repeat - not one of Joshua's targets have moved anything like Frazier.

They might not be unfair questions, but it really depends on how far one wants to extrapolate from moments such as the one you cite above. For example, I personally wouldn't describe Frazier as having been in big trouble against Bugner. Yes his legs buckled momentarily but he remained on his feet and recovered quickly.

Bugner, ironically, cites Frazier as having the best chin he faced and states:

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Suffices to say that I more or less agree with Bugner. Frazier's chin is really good - not granite - but somewhat above average.

We can theorize about Frazier's ability to take a punch but I'd say that the speculative Frazier/Norton comparison is a wee bit of a reach. Admittedly, I'm only using their respective matches against Foreman as the benchmark here (and, for Frazier, Foreman I), but Frazier took plenty of flush shots before finally succumbing and, even then, he looked like he'd have continued had the ref let him (And, as a side note, I wouldn't consider this the best version of Frazier, either. Same goes for the Frazier who met Bugner). Conversely, Norton was in terrible shape once Foreman connected. It was all done bar the shouting, after the first big shot.

This is fair, but not necessarily an indicator of great stamina. That's relative to and really depends on the action occurring during the fight.

For example, we saw Joshua virtually punch himself out against Wlad, entering the mid-stage of the bout, and he was a tad fortunate that Wlad was unable to fully capitalize on the advantage. Fair play to him for gathering a second wind and earning the victory, but it was touch-and-go there for a while.

When Ruiz Jr turned up the gears, ironically in response to having been decked himself, Joshua just didn't appear able to cope, despite being given a good period of reprieve during rounds 4 to 6 - and, Ruiz was, for the most part, an open target who moved nothing like Frazier. He took Joshua to task simply by fighting his fight.

Joshua is not impervious to return fire (like Foreman & Ali were). He can be shut down when taken out of his comfort zone.

Again - fair point. But I think that anyone who, a) forces Joshua to throw more punches than his script says he should and, b) can make him miss with more of those punches thrown than he usually would, is going to fare well against him (if they can avoid the swing of the hammer, as they do so).

All of that said and, as intimated in my prior post, it's not implausible that Joshua could deliver the 'game-changer' and end the fight in his favor, if he lands several more of them - because it would take more than just the one punch to get the job done, IMO. However, I just don't think it's as straightforward as Joshua having those clear physical advantages with the confident expectation that he could apply them against such a class act as Frazier.