Is there any 180-199 pounder that could have done better against 1965 Ali

Marciano,Frazier,Dempsey,Louis,Holyfield...they would all do it better.

 

Frazier in his prime was actually 195-199 and Louis was too.

 

Billy Conn
Max Schmeling
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Gene Tunney
Floyd Patterson without back issues

 

Conn is an interesting choice. He was often below 180, but he did have the type of style that may have been a bit complicated for Ali. Ali would have had to come forward, which didn't seem to be his comfort zone. Conn would be giving up somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 lbs. though, and I wouldn't expect him to win, but I do believe he could have won some rounds. He almost ceratinly would have done better than Patterson.

 

Ali on Marciano:

"I could have beaten all of those guys, except for maybe Marciano.”

“When I was 14 years old and listening to the radio and I heard the announcer, ‘.and still champion of the whole world, Rocky Marciano..’ I knew I wanted to be champion someday. He was a big influence in the start of my career.”

"Ooo he hit hard. He hit you so hard it'd jar your kin folks in Africa...it'd been rough...I truly think on my best day and his best day I would have beaten him...I think he was better than Joe Frazier, I truly think he was better than Joe Frazier and you know what Joe Frazier did to me...I think it would be even, he may have won. It's just hard...In his heyday, he may have won. It's up to the imagination.

(When asked who would have given him the most trouble)
"Rocky Marciano...He would be the most trouble I think...Rocky Marciano."

 

In his 37-fight career Frazier weighed under 200lbs 4 times, the last of which was in his 10th fight when Frazier was unranked. He was over 200lbs for every fight thereafter. When do you consider Frazier to have been in his prime?

 

Yank Durham himself said that, Frazier was bulking just for fighting weights but in reality he was 190lbs pounder.

 

So, when you said "Frazier in his prime was actually 195-199", what you meant was "I believe Frazier had a natural fighting weight of 195-199lbs during his prime".

Either way, he seemed to do ok at 205lbs in the FoTC to me.

 

I just quoted what his coach said, both me and you don't know better than his coach himself.

 

I know that, by definition, he wasn't actually 195-199lbs during his prime, as you claimed.

 

You should know that you’re actually not making any sense…again.

Whatever recorded weights Frazier fought at ARE the weights he was and the ONLY weights relevant to the discussion.

You’ve already been told - and it is correct - in his prime Joe’s weight was about 205 lbs. Frazier didn’t bulk up - and even if he did, it doesn’t matter - his ACTUAL fighting weights matter.

 

I might’ve thrown in Joe Louis who was, IIRC, 199 1/2 lbs for Max Baer. That version of Louis would’ve done a lot better against Ali - and personally, I could in fact reason him beating Muhammad - though my view is likely in the minority.

However, I understand and appreciate that your intention is to exclude Louis - perhaps looking for a fighter more naturally comparable in size to Patterson? 195 lbs was a higher end weight for Floyd I believe - while Louis, a naturally bigger man, later carried 207-208 lbs very well.

So technically, while respecting your caveat, I’d pick Louis - and his performance against Baer at the sub 200 lb weight just happened to be one of his best ever displays also -