Joe Frazier does not beat AJ and you can't convince any reasonable person otherwise

JohnThomas1 · Mar 27, 2024

Man_Machine said: ↑

That's fair enough JT - But, if it's simply a matter of power differential that you want to emphasize here, then the number of times Ali landed on Frazier is immaterial.

The difference in power between Joshua and Ali is obvious. Joshua is a power puncher - it goes without saying. If he lands clean on Frazier it's a problem for Frazier, of course. But I question whether Joshua could get his best shots off on Frazier, sufficient to cause the kind of catastrophic results required to end the fight.

The other implication of emphasizing the repeated successes of Ali is that it gives the impression that Frazier was easy to hit and often. He wasn't - and few, if any, could deliver on Frazier the kind of crisp output Ali was able to produce. And, while I don't consider Joshua a "caveman" and have not hinted at such, he's a long way from a Muhammad Ali - and, I'll repeat - not one of Joshua's targets have moved anything like Frazier.

They might not be unfair questions, but it really depends on how far one wants to extrapolate from moments such as the one you cite above. For example, I personally wouldn't describe Frazier as having been in big trouble against Bugner. Yes his legs buckled momentarily but he remained on his feet and recovered quickly.

Bugner, ironically, cites Frazier as having the best chin he faced and states:

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Suffices to say that I more or less agree with Bugner. Frazier's chin is really good - not granite - but somewhat above average.

We can theorize about Frazier's ability to take a punch but I'd say that the speculative Frazier/Norton comparison is a wee bit of a reach. Admittedly, I'm only using their respective matches against Foreman as the benchmark here (and, for Frazier, Foreman I), but Frazier took plenty of flush shots before finally succumbing and, even then, he looked like he'd have continued had the ref let him (And, as a side note, I wouldn't consider this the best version of Frazier, either. Same goes for the Frazier who met Bugner). Conversely, Norton was in terrible shape once Foreman connected. It was all done bar the shouting, after the first big shot.

This is fair, but not necessarily an indicator of great stamina. That's relative to and really depends on the action occurring during the fight.

For example, we saw Joshua virtually punch himself out against Wlad, entering the mid-stage of the bout, and he was a tad fortunate that Wlad was unable to fully capitalize on the advantage. Fair play to him for gathering a second wind and earning the victory, but it was touch-and-go there for a while.

When Ruiz Jr turned up the gears, ironically in response to having been decked himself, Joshua just didn't appear able to cope, despite being given a good period of reprieve during rounds 4 to 6 - and, Ruiz was, for the most part, an open target who moved nothing like Frazier. He took Joshua to task simply by fighting his fight.

Joshua is not impervious to return fire (like Foreman & Ali were). He can be shut down when taken out of his comfort zone.

Again - fair point. But I think that anyone who, a) forces Joshua to throw more punches than his script says he should and, b) can make him miss with more of those punches thrown than he usually would, is going to fare well against him (if they can avoid the swing of the hammer, as they do so).

All of that said and, as intimated in my prior post, it's not implausible that Joshua could deliver the 'game-changer' and end the fight in his favor, if he lands several more of them - because it would take more than just the one punch to get the job done, IMO. However, I just don't think it's as straightforward as Joshua having those clear physical advantages with the confident expectation that he could apply them against such a class act as Frazier.
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Excellent post old mate!!!! I'd hardly expect any less tho. I'll reply to some over the weekend then let you have the close.

Man_Machine · Mar 27, 2024

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

Excellent post old mate!!!! I'd hardly expect any less tho. I'll reply to some over the weekend then let you have a the close.
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Much appreciated JT.

There have been several quality contributions to this discussion that have been thought-provoking, including those from your good self.

mcvey · Mar 27, 2024

USFBulls727 said: ↑

Joshua also gets a lot of power on his uppercut, which might be more of a problem for Frazier than the straight right that KO'd Ngannou.

Yes, if AJ lands flush, that would be a big problem for Frazier. I can see a scenario where Joshua nails him early, and it ends up another Foreman situation where Joe is making snow angels all over the canvas. Not nearly as confident in an AJ victory as you though. Joshua has been hurt and stopped by lesser fighters, and Joe has beaten better.

This is asking an awful lot of Joe though. The size and strength deficits would be enormous in this fight. I'd lean AJ in this, but wouldn't risk a whole lot of money on it.
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AJ's uppercut would be dangerous, against that is Frazier's hook,AJ would have trouble landing his jab against the bobbing and weaving Frazier,his best scenario ,imo would be to get physical and continually push Frazier back to his own optimum range as Foreman did.I'm not confident AJ has quite the minerals for a war with a relentless swarmer like Joe,but if he has, his size and power should see him through.

Saintpat · Mar 27, 2024

Rollin said: ↑

And Ruiz is 6ft or so, you bums.
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I don’t care how tall he is, Ruiz is no Joe Frazier.

If he could ice Joshua, Frazier might beat the man to death.

Rollin · Mar 27, 2024

Saintpat said: ↑

I don’t care how tall he is, Ruiz is no Joe Frazier.

If he could ice Joshua, Frazier might beat the man to death.
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That was the point Saint. Ruiz is listed as 188cm, but he is so much closer to Joe in reality.

tragedy · Mar 28, 2024

Saintpat said: ↑

I don’t care how tall he is, Ruiz is no Joe Frazier.
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https://www.celebheights.com/s/Andy-Ruiz-Jr-51924.html
A strong 5'11 is the prevailing consensus.

Turnip mk3 · Mar 28, 2024

Frazer would shatter AJ s Crystal chops .like a panicked free falling in a hurricane !

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Joe Frazier does not beat AJ and you can't convince any reasonable person otherwise

JohnThomas1 VIP Member

Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

mcvey VIP Member

Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

Rollin Boxing Addict Full Member

tragedy Active Member Full Member

Turnip mk3 Active Member Full Member