Is there any 180-199 pounder that could have done better against 1965 Ali

That’s a bold conclusion based on what he was doing vs an impaired version of Floyd Patterson.

 

Judging by what Louis-Conn looked like, I always thought Ali was a terrible matchup for Louis. Ali's movement certainly would have troubled Louis, just as Conn's did, and Ali had comparable hand speed to Conn. Ali was also 30(ish) lbs heavier, and had about 6" in reach compared to Conn. No reason to believe that Ali couldn't replicate what Conn did against Louis, and probably wouldn't have gotten reckless as Conn did late in that fight. Always thought pre-exile Ali, maybe 1965-67 version, was absolutely the wrong guy for Louis.

Stylistically, I believe Conn might have been more difficult for Ali to deal with. Ali never looked all that comfortable on the occasions when he had to stalk an opponent, and Conn likely would have been circling Ali all night, not allowing Ali to get into any kind of rhythm. I'd stop short of saying Conn would win this, but I think he had the style to trouble Ali more than most <200 lb Heavyweights. He was supremely skilled, but his size, or lack thereof, would be a concern.

 

When did Ali ever commit to a gameplan like Conn’s vs Louis? Have you actually watched this fight?

 

I think Conn 1 was far from Louis’ best fight and transplanting the complexion of that fight and extrapolating upon it further to estimate greater success for Ali might be somewhat wayward.

We could make the same mistake overemphasising Ali’s clear vulnerability to the left hook and what Louis’ own left hook might do. Ali was careless, pre-prime and appeared to gain greater resiliency after the fact - but he was dropped very hard by the left hook of 185 lb (?) Cooper.

Anyway, both guys would be duly informed and wary of each other’s strengths/weaknesses and fight accordingly.

In his next fight after Cooper, Ali certainly fought far more seriously vs the apparent far greater threat of Liston and Sonny’s own left hook.

I don’t think Conn became reckless against Louis so much, rather, he was taking the fight to Louis for the better part of the match, Louis simply caught up, ever so methodically and patiently.

Also, for all his mobility, Ali would present as a much larger target for Louis than Conn did.

I’ll note that this is speculative and not as legit as other potential factors but I believe Louis took it a bit easy on Conn - at least early, with Conn stepping up to the opportunities provided by Louis allowing for some competitive rounds before becoming truly serious.

That’s not to say Louis ended it as and when he pleased.

I think the initially relaxed approach saw the fight get away from Louis for quite a period before he was able to rein Conn back in - and all credit to Conn for taking control of the fight when the chances were there.

If the weaknesses some people see in Louis over the course of the first Conn fight were legit and transferable flaws, I think we would’ve seen more frequents issues and worse outcomes than Joe did experience during the course of his actual career in his own time.

No bones though, I know I’m in the minority rating prime Louis’ chances against prime Ali (in all objectivity) as that much higher than most do,

 

Talk about fairness, it was not Muhammad Ali's fault that Floyd Patterson had a bad back, then maybe Floyd should have cancelled the bout until a later time, allowing another challenger like George Chuvalo or Henry Cooper to get a title shot earlier than May 21 1966. I like to discuss, not to debate, I am not a politician to debate. You have your opinion, I have mine, I saw the Patterson fight live on Closed Circuit Television on Nov 22 1965, I don't rely on the words of other fighters about their alleged shortcomings. Excuses are like A holes, everyone has one.

 

I've watched Louis-Conn more than a dozen times throughout the years.

When did Ali ever commit to a gameplan like Conn’s vs Louis? You mean, stick and move....using lateral movement to keep your opponent off balance? That seemed to be the idea for Conn heading into the fight. In that case...maybe Ernie Terrell for Ali? He basically did that all night. I realize Terrell is no Louis, but if you're questioning whether Ali is disciplined enough to stick to a gameplan, then that'd be an example.

Can't say I've ever heard a stated gameplan from Team Conn, but he apparently didn't commit to his own gameplan vs. Louis.

"What's the use of being Irish if you can't be thick".

 

I can't see Conn having a prayer. He was fast but Clay, 40 pounds heavier. was faster. Of all those mentioned I like Tunney's and Walcott's chances the best. Both were strong men, good punchers, good defensive fighters, tough and adaptable, with superior footwork.

 

Haha, stop it you're killing me.

 

I think Conn was getting in longer, more frequent exchanges late in the fight, and it cost him. I believe Louis only caught up because of Conn's carelessness.

I can't argue this too much, since we'll never know, but I don't believe he took it easy on Conn at all, at any point. Joe was unloading quite a bit in the second round, and I think he realized he was in for the long haul when Conn weathered it.

Conn would go in and attack in spurts, giving Louis brief opportunities, then get back to lateral movement. Vs. Ali, I don't think Louis would have had as many as those brief opportunities that Conn gave him. I just see Ali on the bike even more, punching on the move and from range, and not giving Louis much of a target. Not sure Louis figures him out in time, and Ali always survived everything thrown at him. I have Ali taking this by UD. Just my 2 cents.

 

Anyone lacking female companionship is living in the wrong country.

 

Louis might well have beaten Ali. Not sure about him whipping Clay, though. It was said often that Louis was the consummate finisher. Once he got you in trouble, it was over. But nobody ever stopped Ali until Holmes did it, and in my book that doesn't count. Ali's greatest strength and weakness was his chin. A cliche' but true.

 

Ali definitely earned the right (during his career) to be given the benefit of the doubt re scenarios where an opponent might rate some chance of KO’ing him.

Not just that Ali statistically wasn’t KO’d (agree, the Holmes stoppage def. doesn’t count)- but also for the monster shots we saw him take throughout his career and somehow survive.

Just imo, IF Shavers could’ve ever KO’d Ali, it would’ve happened during their fight - Shavers landed everything and the kitchen sink on Ali - brutal, flush punches - but amazingly, Muhammad took them all.

I do think that Louis “might’ve” had the unique blend of skill, technical application, power and punching in combination required to unlock the protection code for Ali’s chin.

Otherwise, I think Joe could still present as somewhat of a problem during the general run of the fight and remain dangerous throughout.

 

Absolutely fair points and overall conclusion. It could go the way you have figured.

I would say your opinion is in the majority also - still, I don’t think it was a great night (happenstance) for Louis and one which doesn’t necessarily carry the weight it’s often given when calculating Joe’s chances against Ali.

It’s one of the most, if not THE most, compelling fantasy match ups for mine.

There’s also the prospects of “second chance Louis” to consider..The Bomber always doing so much better in rematches…

 

Joe didn't have the foot speed to keep up with Clay, but he'd be a mortal threat until the final bell. Cassius' legs separate him from all other heavyweights throughout time. His hands less so. Patterson said Clay's hand speed didn't trouble him so much but his legs did. Louis also had exceptional hand speed, especially those short power punches he could throw with both hands. We tend to forget that hand speed of his.

Who can name any heavyweight from the day of James Corbett TO THIS DAY who combined Joe Louis's power and hand speed? . . . OK, I concede Mike Tyson. Who else?