The fallacy of Ali's "prime"

Yes you would. In psychology they call that denial.

 

Despite the fact he has already spoken to the extreme contrary? You are on a gold medal run for Olympic gymnastics here.

 

I have always said that Muhammad Ali retained his speed, but that was about it. I always said that he hit harder but he was very vulnerable to blows from his opponents in his comeback. He got dropped by Joe Frazier in March 1971, with only two fights in 43 months, he got his jaw broken by Ken Norton in March 1973. In Zaire, Ali could not dance as he did in 1967 against George Foreman. Do you think that anyone could have damaged Ali like they did in 1971 and 1973 in 1967?. I posted this several times before, Frazier's manager Yank Durham would not allow Frazier to fight a peak champion Ali in 1967. Durham said that Joe was too green to go against Clay (Ali). Because of Durham's actions, Joe rebelled against Yank, Frazier then chose not to enter the 1967 WBA Tournament to find a successor to Ali. In a July 10 1967 article in our local newspaper, Ali even made fun of Frazier, saying that Frazier was scared to fight him because of his over cautious manager.

 

I have my college degree in Psychology.

 

Well done. Not sure about your neck of the woods but it is a decent earner as a livelihood in Australia.

 

Just have a count here. The majority are on the point that had lost a step but still was excellent. You see that as well as I do, so just man up and say as much.

Two or three think Ali was better in the 70's. Have yet see anything such about Tyson after prison, for comparison.

And, yes, one used more drastic terms of Ali's legs and reflexes being gone.

So you were going off on the one more extreme takes and ignoring the rest of the thread. Because you're a poor poster and looking for things to fit your narrative. If you had the ability to take a view on the whole thread you'd see that most actually say what you do.

 

Thanks buddy. It was a lot of work.

 

Well you could look at it this way--Ali hadn't been in the ring for 3.5 years and had only one tough tuneup bout prior to meeting an all-time top-10 HW at his peak. He subsequently gave Frazier a bad enough battering that Joe was ultimately hospitalized for nearly a month and lapsed into a near coma. That's what it took for Frazier to win--it damn near killed him!!

I wonder what would have happened had Ali not had the 3.5 year exile and was able to continue his career uninterrupted and stay in peak fighting condition.

Our viewpoints on this subject are like that classic saying: "East is east--and west is west--and never the two shall meet."

 

Any sane person would agree Frazier wasn’t beating Ali in 1967. The real question is by ’69, who would win the fight, had Ali not been sidelined.

 

No, I am not going off one extreme. I am choosing not to scour forums & docos to show the regular excuse-making for Ali you claim to be unaware of. It’s a waste of my time. But since you’ve been such a poor sport about being proven wrong in an instant, I think I’ll leave you to someone else going forward.

 

Unlike you he's a good poster, so I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt that he used somehat drastic words to drive home a point.

 

To whom? Only one here who claims that general opinion is that FOTC Ali was shot despite being in the smack middle of a thread where the far majority is not of that view.

 

Frazier’s hospitalisation had a lot to do with unrelated health problems, but the point you make on how close the fight was is, as you say, an East-West interpretation. You see it as proof Ali would clearly have won in his prime because he was so much better then. I see it as proof he really lost a whole lot less ability than is usually claimed. Not to mention Ali had fought as many rounds in his two tune-ups as Frazier had in his last four!

 

I think that in 1969, the Ali vs Frazier fight would have been way more competitive, both fighters were experienced, both had all of their physical gifts, neither were handicapped by loss of time or age. A really good fight, better than The Fight Of The Century. In 1967, an easy win for champion Ali as Ali was approaching his prime and was in peak form with wins over George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper, no knockdown this time, Brian London, Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley, also more fights to come as two were already signed. Ali would have defeated a Frazier that recently had suffered to knockdowns against Oscar Bonavena to score a hotly disputed split decision victory, but that loss to Ali would have propelled the intensity of Frazier to be on a mission to defeat champion Ali, it would have been a learning lesson for Frazier.