Prime Sonny Liston vs Prime Evander Holyfield, 15 rounds.

Self contradiction and dual application of standards are beautiful things, aren’t they?

Let’s apply your default rejection “blueprint” for information that doesn’t suit you - sans any critical judgment.

Were you there when Foreman sparred Liston - do you think you know better than George?

When George assessed Sonny, it was retroactive, therefore it included consideration of all the men Foreman engaged before or since his time sparring Liston.

Doesn’t matter what age George was - HE touted Sonny as # 1 in regards to the attributes referenced, taking on board all opponents and sparring partners George ever faced.

Again, do you know better than George who actually sparred Liston?

You won’t buy the Liston hype??

With that statement, you just blatantly admitted your prejudice against Liston...again.

Whatever the facts/info put to you re Liston, by way of prejudgment, you will treat as hype
and BLINDLY reject.

No mystery there, but let’s reaffirm your tainted and heavily biased position.

So, you’re happy to buy into the Machen HYPE of claiming he that was blinded - a claim made 4 years after the fact, on the heels of Miami and a claim that the actual vision of the fight does NOT support in any way, shape or form.

Have you seen vision of Foreman sparring Liston - NO, we only have George’s
testimony to go by but of course you know better than George himself...because you won’t buy into the Liston hype - OMG, Lolol!!

There was NOT 4 separate fighters who claimed being blinded by Liston,

There was only Ali (initially in 64) and then Machen AFTER that, Ed, Edd and Eddie clearly riding on the coat tails of Ali’s knee jerk, histrionics and claim.

There is no primary source or reference to Valdez or Folley making any such claims.

You quoted a poster who MISTAKENLY claimed that Nigel Collins, in his book Boxing Babylon, cited Folley as complaining of the same issue.

He did NOT. You haven’t read the book or watched the 12 Greatest Rounds. Bazinga!

NO, Folley was NOT referenced in that book.

Only Machen and another fighter were mentioned - anecdotally, WITHOUT primary evidence.

The other fighter mentioned who allegedly had eye issues???? Hmmm. Who could that be?

If you were told, you’d probably inexplicably and illogically log up the complaints to 5 aggrieved opponents.

Well, do your homework and actually watch and read the info for yourself - instead of quoting here say as gospel.

YOU find out the other fighter nominated - a nomination made WITHOUT any acceptable evidence in tow.

So, in fact, it was only ever Machen and Ali who complained.

Ali first, the. Machen 2nd as an obvious band wagon jumper.

Ali later understood it to be an accidental contamination of his eyes - Dundee attested to same also.

But, of course, my bad, you know better than both Ali and Dundee also, lol.

No one’s gonna fool YOU with that Liston hype, no sirree, but they will easily fool you with any baseless, defamatory claims made against Sonny.. simply because you WANT to believe it. Lol.

Logic should tell you that IF Ali didn’t have issue with his eyes in Miami, you wouldn’t have heard **** from Machen about his allegedly being “blinded”also, some FOUR years prior.

Produce ANY reference to Valdez and Folley being blinded - READ PROPERLY - ANY reference besides the quoting of a member who misremembered and accidentally said that Folley was referenced as having complained about being blinded.

The cop that Liston inverted and placed in a dumpster wasn’t an ancestor of yours, was he?

If so, I get that, not one of Sonny’s better moves or moments.

Please don’t quote me - BUT, I did read that Liston at least put the cop in very softly...and in the recyclable compartment of the bin also - so let’s give Charles credit for that. The cop lived to walk the beat, another day.

Cruel but fair would be a good description for Sonny. Not a God, but just A Man, as aptly inscribed on his head stone.

You have very unusual and extremely prejudiced issues with Liston which cause you to keep repeating BS that has already been thoroughly debunked.

Joe Frazier’s impaired vision in one eye?? Yep, you guessed it. Liston again. Had to be.

Joe didn’t even have to claim it - simply adopting the position of NOT buying into any of the Liston hype tells us that Sonny HAD to have been the culprit for that also.

For some people, Charles is their favourite “fall guy” - but I don’t think he was ever seen with Farrah. Who knows? Maybe. Good luck to him if he was.

Are you feeling my vibe here?

 

Yeah but Foreman never rated Liston as the hardest puncher perhaps he said that Lyle was the hardest puncher and the strongest man so no I would still not buy the Liston hype from his paroles like you and Swag.

I spit facts by people who fought them and 4 claimed that they were blinded but your stupidity said that Machen was crazy and Ali was a liar just because you do not like what they said.

Yeah he should bring his eyes to you so you would believe him but you would still call him crazy just because you do not like what he said.

So what it is his right when he could mentioned that, he mentioned that just to show that Ali was butthurt and is a bitter when struggle but that does not mean that he was not blinded.

 

Completely different dimensions, different skillsets, different styles and different strengths. They both have two arms and two legs tho. But not even close really.

The average fan card has Lewis winning the rematch 9 rounds to 3. The average fan card for the first fight was 10-2 to Lewis. Going by your comparisons Sonny would do just fine.

 

You can’t stay on point to save your life - because you have NO points.

Repeat - ANY evidence for Valdez and Folley making said claims ? - produce that evidence NOW!

You’re all over the place like a mad woman’s excrement. Duck for cover, everyone!

 

Yeah like you who don't like that your hero cheated.

Repeat: you called Machen crazy and Ali a liar just because you don't like what they said.

 

Holyfield UD.

 

What a treasure you are.

 

Still better than you, Liston police paroles here.

 

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Someone butthurt here...the forum should be called Liston paroles: swag,puggy and thomas.

 

You can't even spell pugguy right you idiot

Lucky you can't access all your previous alts - the entire forum would be outnumbered!!!!!

 

I won't even try spell his name, he would say that it's not his name and call me a liar.
And you and swag would chase me after that.

 

Sonny's jab would be the difference Sonny in a war