Who do you rate higher Ali or Holmes?

I think either way he would get almost no support

He doesn't have the storyline or fighting style to ever be considered the goat. Not to mention his personality like you said

 

He also didn't ruin his own career like many did with substance abuse, money issues, etc. Sort of an odd sport where someone gets credit for being a normal well adjusted adult, but there you go.

He's painful to listen to when talking about other fighters though. Good god.

Of the retired big name HW's around who pop up in podcasts and interviews, humorously, Tyson seems one of the best ambassadors of the sport. He follows current fighters, he praises guys deserving of praise, he displays nothing but respect for the guys who beat him, makes zero excuses about any failings in his own career, etc. Hell, he makes excuses for guys he beat (particularly Holmes). He'll carry on an actual informed, adult discussion about current boxers or anything in his career.

 

He would if he was in the throes of a degenerative neurological disease that affects gait, reflexes, and motor function.

 

Complete nonsense. Ali won the rematch easily.

That's always an excuse that people use for Ali that I never bought into.

Ali just didn't take Spinks seriously.

A cherry pick gone wrong

 

But the Ali of even just three years earlier would have stopped Spinks within seven rounds.

 

In any case he was boxing professionally for eighteen years and had 20,000 rounds of boxing, if you include sparring, under his belt. Crap happens.. Look at how Tyson's Leonard's, RJJ's DLH's and B-Hop's career ended. And that's just scratching the surface. Ali wasn't really Alli anymore and those boxers weren't themselves anymore. Old boxers don't paint great canvases. They become part of them.

 

That might be true but that doesn't change my point that Ali overlooked a c level fighter that is something Larry Holmes never would do

 

Ali lost to Spinks not because he was shot but because he didn't take it seriously. Same as the Jimmy Young fight.

Ali lacked dedication during his 2nd title run. That's why I used to have Holmes ahead of him.

Ali, Lewis, Tyson, Tyson Fury, all overlooked fighters

Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, Wladimir Klitschko never did

 

I have a feeling that Holmes underrated Leon's brother a tad before their first bout.

 

Did he take Michael Spinks seriously and if your answer is yes then logic compels you to admit Michael was better or at lesst better at that stage of their careers.

 

Could be but I don't think that was it.. Holmes had a an injury and if he had Alis favoritism in big fights (Young, Norton 3, Ali even won a card vs Leon Spinks the first time) they'd give Larry Holmes the nod.

Also I thought Holmes clearly won the 2nd Michael Spinks fight

 

I think he did but idk.

Yes Spinks and Holmes were comparable at that point. I think Witherspoon would've beaten that version of Larry Holmes. Pinklon Thomas had a good shot as well

 

I was listing the HWs I have ranked above Ali before giving my reasoning why Holmes was not. I have Foreman and Louis above Ali.

Ali was 32 years old and didn't lose his belt for 3 and a half years. Ali v Frazier III was a year later. And it was only after that war where Ali began to noticeably decline.

I acknowledge the flaws of rating an opponent based on their losses. But I still prefer it to rankings and other metrics of rating an opponent which are more arbitrary. Losses becoming rarer has mostly ruined this method of evaluation for more modern eras because you can't compare losses if fighters don't actually lose. In any case I'm not saying Holmes is better than Ali. Was just bringing up he had that record.

Of all Holmes undefeated wins why go after Witherspoon and Carl Williams? Witherspoon almost beat Holmes and is one of the best HWs of the era. Carl Williams did okay against Holmes and earned 2nd title shot. They actually proved they were worthy title contenders if nothing else.

 

This debate is all caused by the fact that Ali let his sparring partners beat on him to toughen him up so he could take punches from the likes of George Foreman. I loved watching Holmes fight and think he was robbed twice in the Michael Spinks fights. But when he says he could have beaten Ali at the time he was one of Ali’s sparring partners when Ali was preparing to fight the likes of Ellis, Young, Frazier, Norton and Foreman is laughable.

It says more about how little Holmes understood at the time about what Ali was allowing him to do in the sparring sessions as opposed to what he thought his own skill was causing to happen in the sparring sessions. Prime versus prime, Ali likely KOs/TKOs Holmes in no more than 7 rounds.

As everyone knows styles makes fights. Norton gave Ali all he wanted in fights 1 and 3. But if Ali was in his prime what would have happened? IMO you don’t have to look any further than the Holmes/Norton fight that was the finale of a tournament of sorts to determine who was Heavyweight champion after Ali retired after winning the 2nd Spinks fight.

Both fighters were in their prime and in perfect shape. Holmes had picked up a lot of Ali’s style while his sparring partner so for Norton it was very similar to preparing for Ali. But if prime Ali would have dismantled Norton easily wouldn’t Holmes do the same? No! It was a brutal 15 round fight that went to the judges. Not known at the time was whoever won the 15th round would win the fight. Two of the three judges gave the 15th to Holmes making him the new Heavyweight champion. So prime Ali versus prime Norton wouldn’t have been one sided at all simply because of Norton was going to give any fighter with Ali’s style a difficult fight. Also Holmes would never give Norton a rematch. The full fight used to be on YouTube and I would encourage anyone who hasn’t seen it to sit down with your popcorn and enjoy one of the best fights ever!

 

It is mass delusion to think Ali lost legitimately to 7-fight never-would-be Leon Spinks. A blindingly obvious set up to make Ali the first three-time Champ. I don’t buy it for a nanosecond.