Who do you rate higher Ali or Holmes?

I feel like Norton should be erased. He’s basically in the hof because of his fights with Ali whereas a lot of other top heavyweights would’ve wiped the floor with him.

 

Pinklon Thomas was rated number 4 in 1983, number 1 in 1984, number 1 in 1985, and went undefeated from 1978 to 1985. Thomas absolutely should've got a shot at Holmes at some point during this period. And it would've heightened Holmes's resume significantly beating an undefeated rated number 1 Pinklon Thomas.

Mike Weaver was rated number 1 in 1980 & 1981 and had the best resume of any Heavyweight during that period. Weaver certainly should've got a rematch and it would've been a unification aswell, which also would've added to Holmes's resume since he never unified.

Greg Page was Holmes's mandatory in 83 so he was obligated to fight him, instead Holmes fought two very undeserving challengers in Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier. The Frazier fight was considered such a poor choice of opponent i don't think WBC even sanctioned it. Was Greg Page a hot and cold fighter ? yes. But would a win over Page in 83 been significantly better than wins over Frank ? Frazier ? absolutely.

 

These are such simple facts, but so hard to take in for some. He can't get a pass for not fighting the nr 1 contender once during seven years just because he beat a would be nr. 1 at one point and beat a guy that would beat a future nr. 1.

 

but Holmes matured very slowly, in the fight against Norton he was still too inexperienced and underdeveloped. I agree that Norton was further from the prime, but his rival's style favored him. Considering how susceptible Norton was to the slugger style, I think Holmes was overall a better player than Norton. Another thing is that Ali actually faced two great fighters in their true prime - Frazier I and Norton. Liston was a big name, like Tyson from Holyfield, Patterson can't be considered one of the really great ones, after all he had already had many knockouts, the fight with Foreman was great in terms of the media but not in terms of sports, it took place in very unfavorable circumstances for George. The rest can hardly be considered great. Holmes also had no such problems with rivals like Doug Jones, Cooper, Wepner or Leon Spinks. Too bad Larry didn't get Big George in 1977. Once again - Ali may be higher but not by much, the advantage of his CV is greater than the real advantage, the latter is really minimal

 

So, we are agreed that Holmes was closer to his best than Norton when he narrowly beat him, and that Norton was closer to his best than Ali when Ali beat him. Good.

Norton was a tough stylistic match-up for both Ali and Holmes.

No one has ever said anything remotely different.

Pardon my French, but what absolute horse ****.

Norton was never great. He was perhaps borderline great against boxers, but that's it. Patterson had a better resume, but wasn't a stylistic poison for a certain style like Norton was.

Liston came off his two best performances. Not just wins. Performances. He was seven months removed from the best he ever looked in a ring when a still developing Ali beat him.

1964 Liston would have smashed Norton to bits.

And that the conditions favoured Ali in Zaire is an after the fact made up thing that you can only believe if you're very biased or don't know anything about the actual fight.

Ali's plan was to stick and move and hold when he had to. Ride out the early storm that way and then take Foreman into deep waters. Heat and humidity, slow canvas and a small ring (only 16 foot instead of the usual 20) are the worst possible conditions for a plan that's based on movement. But Ali pulled out a plan B on the fly and won. Those are the actual facts.

It's also a myth that he needed the heat and humidity to make his plan B work. He was actually winning most of the rounds already before Foreman tired. He was landing the clean blows throughout. It wasn't the heat that puffed up Foreman's face, it was Ali's punches.

In the MSG Ali probably wins by executing his plan A, but if he doesn't he can still win with plan B because he was outlanding Foreman throughout and actually staggering him more than the other way around (in rds 3, 4 and 5).

 

Poor George. Ali had to fight in those conditions too.

And like fighting outside in forty degrees and ninety degrees. I didn't hear any of the combatants complaining in those bouts.

 

As Maxin said: I didn't notice any fan in my corner.

 

no, because George didn't explain himself. But his style was as emergetic as any other, and the experienced Ali, who like no one else, could disassemble a device used to 100%. And no, Ali wouldn't dance in MSG because he no longer had legs. He would do what he did with Frazier or later Spinks - he would lean on the ropes. But they wouldn't be as loose as in Zaire. Ali was doing it illegally. Damn, who saw Ali dancing in the 70's? with Inoki? A crowd of several thousand people chanting Ali booma ye... there's a bit of pressure, right? ok, I forgot that people often treat boxing like a computer game.

 

Every time Ali faced Frazier he was the older and more shopworn boxer. And if Frazier was never the

Leonard -Duran lll was held outside in Las Vegas in December. You could see the smoke coming from Leonard's breath. There is no crying in boxing unless you're Oliver McCall.

 

He was on his toes for the previous two fights- the second Norton and Frazier fights. Here are the videos in case anybody missed them:

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Show any point in the fight where Foreman was winning. One round that he won clearly. You should be able to do that if you don't mean to say that the heat had exhausted him even before the bell rang.

He did just that against Frazier earlier in the year.

And even if it didn't work, he'd just revert to what arguably won him every round in Zaire, even when Foreman was fresh.

The crowd was against him? Bo-hoo. Ali dealt with that in every fight during his first reign.

 

an extreme climate which Ali, who was extremely good at distributing his strength, took extreme advantage of by illegally leaning on the ropes and allowing the extremely inexperienced George to lose strength. An extremely biased crowd whose pressure could not help but crush George, and Ali was able to take advantage of it like no other. I am convinced that out of 10 fights at that time, 9 will be won by Georg and 1 by Ali - provided it takes place in some tropical jungle come on, every time we have such a sensation, there must be something behind it. Even Howard Cossell didn't bet on Ali. I wonder why? probably all these professionals don't know boxing like we do.

 

Leonard -Duran lll was held outside in Las Vegas in December, in the evening no less. I have been in Vegas in December and it's cold. You could see the smoke coming from Leonard's breath. There is no crying in boxing unless you're Oliver McCall./

Back to Kinshasha. Ali was the infinitely more shopworn boxer. Many said he was done. He beat George in every way a fighter can beat another fighter, physically and mentally.

 

Again, your version of events means that Foreman should have been on top before he started to tire. Show me when he ever was.

Do you disagree that Ali got the better of the early rounds?

 

• “I kicked a lot of asses – not only George’s,” he said. “All those writers who said I was washed up, all those people who thought I had nothin’ left to offer but my mouth, all them that been against me from the start and waitin’ for me to get the biggest beatin’ of all times. They thought big bad George Foreman, the baddest man alive, could do it for them but they know better now.”
• From the Vault: Hugh McIlvanney meets Muhammad Ali, hours after the Rumble in the Jungle | Muhammad Ali | The Guardian