Why come Liston didn't get a title shot against Frazier in the late 60s

I did a telephone interview with Mel Greb in the 1990s. Greb was promoting fight cards at the Fremont HoteI the year Sonny moved to Vegas. I think Liston trained in more than one spot but definitely at Johnny Tocco's gym. I asked Greb how Liston looked in the late 1960s. "He was shot," Greb said. He recalled that after his Los Angeles bout with Billy Joiner the reports on Sonny's performance were terrible. He said nobody wanted Liston for any reason. I don't understand how Liston could be box office poison on one hand and receiving offers from the Dundees to fight Ellis for a title on the other hand. It doesn't compute.

 

Well if he'd beaten Martin he'd have probably fought Frazier. Why bother cherry picking at all in his position if its not in service of a larger goal like getting a title shot? Why would he fight Frazier for the title and not Ellis?

 

Thanks for enlightening us with the correct information buddy, appreciate it.

 

Its not all that hard to find. People on here saying Dundee couldnt get a promoter have no idea what they are talking about. Chris Dundee, Angelo's brother, was the one who was trying to promote Ellis-Liston. He was one of the most successful promoters in the USA at the time. Liston flat turned him down. Bill Miller, who was the premier promoter in Las Vegas in the 1960s was hot after Liston to fight Quarry. They both appeared in exhibitions for the benefit of Ferd Hernandez in Vegas to promote the fight. Quarry had already agreed and signed and Liston literally walked out. Just like the Ellis fight it would have been his biggest post Ali payday. He also turned down Aileen Eaton and a promoter out of Texas whose name I forget now for fights with Quarry for good purses. The newspapers printed that Liston didnt want anyone as tough as Quarry. Instead Liston chose to fight guys like Willis Earls and Sonny Moore. Even Martin was his ex sparring partner just like Amos Lincoln had been who he also fought during this period. The idea that Liston wasnt able to get good fights and no promoter would take a chance on him is ridiculous. Liston was turning down the good fights because he knew he couldnt beat the top guys anymore. Anyone saying "if he had beaten Martin he would have fought Frazier..." You know this how??? You dont know what he would have done? It was just as likely he would have kept fighting bums to keep his winning streak going instead of lose to a top guy AGAIN and remove all doubt that he was now finished at the top of the heap and the bottom line is that he cherry picked his ex sparring partner who had just recently reentered the ratings and was an in and outer and still got knocked clean out by him. But sure, it was Quarry, Ellis, and Frazier who were ducking him LOL

 

He didnt fight Frazier. He didnt fight Ellis. We KNOW he refused to fight Ellis. The idea that he would have definitely fought Frazier had he not been knocked out by his former sparring partner is completely supposition. Its just as likely he would have kept on fighting bums for smaller purses which was what his goal was. Im sure everyone here would have thought that if he beat Henry Clark he would have DEFINITELY fought Quarry as he was supposed to... until he turned it down to take a much easier fight. Fighting ten bums at $5,000 a pop and winning to keep the paychecks coming is a lot easier and more lucrative than getting knocked out by Frazier or Quarry or Ellis for $50,000 and having your earning power reduced even more or completely ending your career.

 

So do you have any sources on this?

 

Am parusing Listons post Ali opponents and they are not as horrible as you claim. Amos Lincoln, Henry Clark, Roger Rischer, Earls like you mentioned. Zech. These are not terrible opponents for a non champion. I was expecting worse. And of course he fought Wepner his last fight.

 

I can absolutely see Liston at that point being unwilling to deal with any opponent he might have to work hard to face and caring only about getting enough cash to pay the bills.

 

Proof??? - anything that at least amounts to the quality evidence that Solomon Deedes has provided?

Quibble over the comp, if you like (which included Henry Clark) but from July 66 to Dec 69 Liston went 14-0, 13 of which were by KO/TKO.

Just as he was sidestepped by several fighters when in his prime - it does seem that Liston was ostracised and sidestepped by several figures after the fact of the Ali fights - Ali being the primary mover for chaos during that fight. not Liston.

I mean, in his hey day, Liston dodged the likes of Ingo and Cooper, didnt he? The Ali fight really did prove WHY Liston was running scared from the likes of those two.

Fighters being waited out and aged out is a real thing - all the evidence points to Liston being shut out - and the names that might’ve and could’ve appeared on Liston’s resume otherwise, had nothing to do lack of inclination on Liston’s part.

 

No, that was a joke to make a point.

I’m stating a case as to why Liston might not have got to fight Ellis, Frazier, or even better comp. than he did, etc- a case against the perception that it was Liston avoiding the fights and not in fact the prospective opponents in question who weren’t willing to take any risks fighting Liston .

 

I can't believe I've never thought about this ... and I was alive back then. This is a great question made even greater by the fact that Liston was basically ranked in the Ring top 10 throughout 1968 and 1969 and was ranked ahead of numerous fighters Frazier defended his title against.

There have been a of of quality responses on this thread but I congratulate you on the quality of the original post.

 

Liston fought seven times in 1968 and four times in 1969. He fought a few fairly well-known, former and then-current contenders (Lincoln, Rischer, Clark, Martin). The Clark fight was Liston's first televised fight in years. And Clark was smartly chosen. He couldn't punch, wasn't strong and didn't pose much risk. Rischer had been kayoed by Brian London in 50 seconds three years prior. Lincoln was just a trial horse by then. He was losing consistently. Martin was a former sparring partner of Liston's. He was the only one of Sonny's later opponents who presented any danger. Sonny figured he could still handle him, and for seven rounds he did. Had he fought Quarry in 1969 he would have been the underdog and Quarry would have knocked him out. Likewise, Frazier in 1970 was too young and probably too tough for Sonny. So your explanation of why Liston was taking on such weak opposition makes a lot of sense.

 

Yeah, but it would not have been champion vs. champion.

Thats part of the aura The Fight of the Century had, since it was champion vs. champion, the first time two undefeated world heavyweight champions fought for the title.

 

Liston was still a lively one before he died.

But he'd had as much a chance against Joe in 1969 as Greg Page would have had against Mike Tyson in 1989...

Oh wait. Page...did..drop...Tyson during that sparring session in Tokyo....

Liston would have gone a few rounds with Frazier but been beaten badly at this point in their career for his troubles doing so.