Why come Liston didn't get a title shot against Frazier in the late 60s

Lol.

Where did you come up with me saying anything about his ‘imaginary mob handlers’ or anything about his management, the mob or anything related to that?

What I said was, in a sarcastic way, is that if his plan was to pick up easy money fighting easy guys rather than take bigger paydays against top guys that it turned out to be a stupid plan.

If you want to dispute that in light of the fact that he got KTFO by his ‘former sparring partner,’ sing it to the skies til the cows come home — but it was still a stupid plan.

He got $15K including expenses (and that includes travel expense for him and two others) to fight Chuck Wepner after the Martin KO loss. I’d say it’s a stretch to think Sonny cleared even $10K of that sum for himself.

Great plan.

 

Outstanding stuff.

For all intents and purposes, Charles Liston was done forevermore, period, no matter what he did or what fans might have wanted, as a serious heavyweight contender when he left the ring on the evening of May 25, 1965, in Lewiston, Maine. Moving forward IMO he was just trying to keep the lights on at his place in Vegas without having to work too hard or risk his neck.

 

Thanks for that info.

Why wouldn’t Dundee highlight the efforts to get Liston into the ring if they were completely genuine?

Dundee said they couldn’t get a promoter - he also identified the risk that Liston still presented.

As to Quarry, if Liston did put that fight back, why would it be so untoward for Liston to dare exercise his own risk/reward assessment - when looking to fight either Ellis or Frazier, as opposed to the low reward/high risk Quarry first.

The winner of Liston vs Wepner was allegedly set to face Quarry - of course Liston won but passed not too long after - I’ve also read that Liston, after the Wepner fight, actually signed the dotted line to face Chuvalo - I don’t know if that is 100% true.

Sorry, but what happened to Ellis’ projected fight against Cooper?

After his controversial nod over Patterson in Sep68 - Ellis didn’t fight for 17 months before facing Frazier - was everyone somehow baulking at the prospect of facing Jimmy during his own protracted, inactive period?

 

How could you not like this fantastic (and entertaining) post? Thanks Klompton for doing the work.

 

He needed the money to pay off a gambling debt. This is well known. He had lost the money betting on Foster over Quarry. Instead, Quarry knoocked Foster out. As I pointed out above, Liston owed the money to Lem Banker. After paying the debt and his corner, Sonny cleared bupkis on the Wepner fight.

 

Im not sure why you think Dundee didnt talk about it. He did. It was discussed a lot. They floated Liston the offer from Chris which Liston declined with an excuse that made no sense to anyone with half a brain. Dundee also flew to LA to meet with Parnassus and Eaton who were both competing for the opportunity to stage it. Coming from a position of not knowing these facts and then supposing that because you dont know them that they didnt happen doesnt really give much strength to your suppositions here.

But honestly, you tell me what makes more sense given the facts: Chris Dundee offers Liston his highest post Ali purse and title shot against Jimmy Ellis. Liston turns that offer down (along with all others) because after the first Ali fight his part of his purse was confiscated by the IRS because he owed back taxes and he blamed McDonald, the financier of the fight so he refused to fight Ellis in Miami where the Ali fight was staged…. Does that make more sense than Liston choosing not to fight a guy with a similar style to Ali who was trained by the guy who was loud and clear that he knew how to train his fighters to beat Listons style any day of the week and potentially, probably losing and thereby losing what little of his aura he had left? Imagine this like the end of Tysons career where he was fighting guys that werent total **** but posed the least risk for the purses he was making to keep the checks rolling in. Remember, Tyson turned down huge offers to fight Lewis in a rematch and others in favor of lower risk, lower reward fights to keep the fans who still believed he had one more great win in him buying tickets.

In regards to your comment about Cooper-Ellis. Because you dont know the details of that proposed fight doesnt give you license to then make up your own history of how that played out.

In reality initially Cooper couldnt get approval to fight Ellis by the BBBofC that delayed the fight. Cooper then said to hell with it and intended to fight Ellis in violation of the BBBofC and yet during training Cooper got injured and the fight was cancelled. I have a news interview with Ellis in which the sports caster tells Ellis in real time that the fight is off. Ellis goes from being in shock to completely dejected as he hadnt yet heard this news. The fact is that during this period the only HW fight anyone cared about was Frazier-Ellis. Dundee had made it clear that he intended to give Frazier a wide birth. They were flat out avoiding Frazier. Watch the interviews after Ellis-Quarry and Ellis-Patterson to see Dundee gleefully talking about avoiding Frazier. He actively sought fights with lesser opponents like Gregorio Peralta, Sonny Liston, and Henry Cooper rather than face Frazier. Each one of those fights fell through resulting in a long period of inactivity for Ellis. Finally, with few options and needing a big purse Ellis was basically backed into a fight with Frazier and we saw why they werent eager to face him.

As for calculating risk vs reward vis a vis Liston-Quarry there is nothing wrong with that and nobody is criticizing Liston or his management for doing that. But, its the exact opposite of the people here claiming Liston was so scary that nobody would fight him and he couldnt get any offers. Ive illustrated very clearly that wasnt the case. He was getting offers and top fighters were clamoring to fight him, he just chose less risk and less reward for more long term security.

 

He actually adopted a Swedish child, in fact.

 

No, I’m pointing out that Dundee himself didn’t see fit to highlight a perception that Liston was avoiding Ellis, rather, Dundee himself stated that they couldn’t get a promoter.

Please highlight where you think I made up my own history re the signed Ellis - Cooper fight?

I literally asked what happened to that projected fight - obviously because I’m not/wasn’t privy to the related facts.

Having not known the exact, related details doesn’t impugn me at all - I also highlighted 17 months of inactivity on Ellis’ part on the whole

True, based on your advice and not my necessarily knowing same, - except for Ellis’
material and notable inactivity - you’re talking multiple match ups projected for Ellis against so called “lesser lights”, fights that all, somehow, fell through?

Whatever the whys and wherefores, doesn’t that make Jimmy more the common denominator for unrealised/aborted match ups than Liston?

With the “promise” of the Frazier fight BUT with Joe ruling the fight out for ‘69 NOT allow for the possibility of Ellis side stepping any possible risk match ups in the interim that might upset his own long term viability - at least saving himself for the Frazier match that he apparently didn’t want either?

Repeat, even Dundee identified Liston to still be the fighter who could cause the best laid plans of other fighters to go awry.

Again, based on your advice, if Ellis didn’t want to fight Frazier and Dundee openly admitted not wanting the match - shouldn’t Ellis’ own fighting conduct and end game be questioned at least as heavily as Liston’s is - if not more so?

Remember, I’m discussing, not arguing, and I do appreciate what you’ve brought to the table - as well the info that other members have kindly supplied and the opinions they’ve given based on that info.

 

He didn’t call him O.J did he?

Sorry, that’s a “Bruno” joke - and I’m not talking Frank, btw.

 

Ingo.

 

Ingemar, Yo, Liston?

 

How come, or why didn't, sir.

 

And again, he said very clearly that they offered him a fight and he turned it down. Im not sure why you are ignoring that fact.

"Sorry, but what happened to Ellis’ projected fight against Cooper?

After his controversial nod over Patterson in Sep68 - Ellis didn’t fight for 17 months before facing Frazier - was everyone somehow baulking at the prospect of facing Jimmy during his own protracted, inactive period?"

While asking rhetorically whether everyone was also ducking Ellis.

See here is the thing. You asked for the facts and asked for sources to back them up. I gave you those. You dont like where they lead so now rather than Sonny having avoided fights with multiple top guys, which Ive shown in numerous instances that he did. You keep wanting to harp on the idea that Liston didnt turn down all offers to fight Ellis (he did) and blame Ellis because Ellis had three fights fall through that resulted in a 17 month period of inactivity. Trying to draw some weird conclusion that because those fights fell through Ellis was somehow responsible for avoiding Peralta, Cooper, and Liston. Sorry but he wasnt. The Henry Cooper fight seemed doom from the state as Ive pointed out and was ultimately scrapped when Cooper was injured in training. Again, I have the literal moment in time when Ellis is notified of that and hes more shocked and disappointed than anyone. Ellis was literally in Buenos Aires Argentina to fight Peralta when that fight was cancelled at the last minute due to poor ticket sales which resulted in the promoter not being able to cover his costs and cancelling the fight. Liston refused to fight Ellis because somehow he blamed Chris Dundee, or Ellis, or Miami or the weather (take your pick) for the IRS seizing the back taxes he had neglected to pay previously (and again, if you believe that I have some great real estate to sell you).

See above.

And he was also adamant that he knew Listons style and that Ellis could beat him every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Im not sure what your point is beyond trying to puff up Liston in the face of the facts.

But this is a thread about Liston, not Ellis. Feel free to start a thread about Ellis and Dundee doing their utmost to avoid Frazier and Id be happy to comment there. I commented here because people were saying that Liston couldnt get fights and no promoter would sign him and thats simply not true. Liston didnt get those fights because he didnt want them. Period. But if you are simply posting to say well "Well, Ellis had three fights fall through including the Liston fight so it must have been Ellis' fault, not Listons because Ellis was avoiding those guys" then you are simply wrong.

Maybe but it seems like you are playing a very elaborate game of mental gymnastics to avoid the fact that Liston was more interested in kicking the can down the road than making a serious run at any of the more dangerous and more talented fighters in the division.

 

The thing that leaps to the eye about Liston's supposed refusal to face Quarry is that there's no detail of how much money he was offered, only that he was offered the lighter end of the purse, which would be reason enough for a former champion and highly rated contender to turn it down. Also, the article about how Liston walked away from his proposed fight with Quarry in January 69 suggests he did so because he thought he was on the verge of getting a shot at Joe Frazier. If that's true, it doesn't support the idea that he was avoiding dangerous opponents.

As for the Ellis fight, there's no mention of Liston actually being offered a shot in LA or Vegas. Certainly it was talked about, but that's not the same thing. So again, there's really no basis for saying that Liston was refusing to fight him.

 

Why would Liston expect to make more than Quarry who was rated higher and far more popular at the time?

Anyone doubting the legitimacy of the offers can dig deeper and find more details. Liston fanboys are never going to be short on excuses.

The bottom line os people were saying nobody wanted to fight Liston and no promoter was making him offers. Neither is true as illustrated above. Whether Liston thought he should be paid more than what he was offered is irrelevant. The guy was an ex con who many didnt even think should be allowed a fight for the title, he had literally been run out of numerous states for criminal activity, he made an embarrassment out of his two fights with Ali (or at least that was the prevailing feeling at the time), he had his license pulled in most states and was forced to fight in a relative backwater in Europe, and was only just returning to the USA and still being looked at with heavy scrutiny. Not exactly the guy who should trying to dictate terms. Promoters determine if they think they can make money using you and how much they think you are worth. Not the other way around. Im sure EVERY fighter in history wanted more and thought they should be paid more. Most serious fighters in his position who really believed in their invincibility would have jumped at the offers he was turning down. The fact remains that he and his management made the conscious decision to take less money to fight less threatening opposition. This narrative that nobody was willing to fight him and few promoters would use him is hogwash that fanboys have concocted out of ignorance and whole cloth.