Why come Liston didn't get a title shot against Frazier in the late 60s

Wow, excellent post Klompton, you nailed it.
The thing is that even with good facts and proven sources some people would still say that it is not true, not because it isn't but it is because they don't want to accept the truth.

 

Exactly. They think it will detract from his legacy or something. I dont at all. The guy was in the twilight of his career, he had been exposed to degree after the two losses to Ali and he was out there trying to make a buck. I dont fault him for that. In fact I find his later career very interesting. Of course he was out there throwing challenges at the top guys and barking loudly. Thats what these old guys do to sell themselves and keep their fans interested. Who would buy tickets to see an old fighter who admitted hes just moping around and trying to keep the lights on? More power to him. And yes he could still punch, he was still strong, and he could still beat some decent fringe guys. But a serious threat to the title at this point? No. If you want to argue his merits prime for prime against the top guys in 68/69 thats fair. If you want to argue what he might have done with them at this point thats fair too. Just dont tell me nobody would fight him and he was frozen out because thats simply not true.

 

I heard that after Quarry beat Foster who knocked him in a sparring that Liston did not want to fight Quarry and plus he lost a bet while betting on Foster.
Wonder if that is true.
But guys like puggy and swag would never accept what you said about Liston dodging top fighters because they dont want to accept the truth, and that is that Liston avoided good fighters in his later years.

 

No, I’m not ignoring what you’ve stated and provided but you’re flatly ignoring all counter evidence by way of your own assumptions.

It could be conversely said that you don’t like where that counter evidence might lead, how it might reduce your case - so you dismiss it outright rather take it on in balance.

Dundee very clearly stated that they couldn’t get a promoter. He also made it clear that Liston still presented risk as an opponent.

As you’ve stated, Ellis/Dundee were pointedly avoiding Frazier. Would you agree the evidence for that avoidance is greater than the evidence you see for Liston not wanting to fight Ellis?

Of course this is about Ellis also. Given the question of who was avoiding who, we know Ellis wasn’t a open to all comers himself.

Several articles include “Dundee said...”, either Chris or Angelo.

You might have deeper info to better qualify and support their claims, but their claims own their own are not gospel - a lot of boxers/managers make orchestrations for matches they are not actually interested in - it can cut both ways (see woefully inactive Tyson Fury for a current example)

I prefaced with “Sorry” because of the fact that while I knew the bout was signed, I didn’t know the details as to why it fell through. I isolated that question from Ellis’ inactivity otherwise.

You said Liston baulked at fighting Ellis - of course, as we know, though talked of for some
tome, that match didn’t materialise.

I duly referenced Ellis’ inactivity to highlight that nothing was materialising for Ellis anyway - you’ve been attaching the blame to Liston in the first place for the failure of his fighting Ellis while accepting that other matches can and did fall through for Jimmy without blaming Ellis.

As to Dundee, in one of the articles he stated words to the effect “Jimmy’s not waiting around...” to clearly imply they wanted a match with Frazier and if they couldn’t get it, they’d take other fights.

Based on your belief re Ellis/Angelo’s not wanting to face Frazier, you would deduce that Dundee was full of BS implying same - so the legitimacy of a “Dundee said...” claims as “evidence” can be duly questioned on both sides.

I’m trying to puff Liston up? See, that’s another assumption. No, I’m trying to weigh up the evidence from both sides.

Elaborate gymnastics? No, it’s a subject that actually requires both elaborate and even handed treatment.

You’ve strenuously gone to great lengths to state your case also - and that’s fine, of course, but duly accept the same approach from the other side.

It seems that if you believe that someone isn’t on the same page as you, per every detail - and many of said details are open to interpretation and various weighting , you assume they’re positing disingenuous counter evidence with some sort of hidden agenda or alleged bias.

That’s not true at all.

If it was proven reasonably that Liston didn’t want Ellis or Frazier I would accept that, why would I not? literally no skin off my nose - but, in all objectivity and taking all info on board, I don’t think that claim has been reasonably proven.

You said that Dundee claimed they knew how to handle Liston as if that disproved any disinclination on their part to fight Sonny.

In equal and opposite terms, Liston himself claimed that he had the measure of both Ellis and Frazier. It’s basically the same piece of verbal “evidence” in its own right.

Some people believe that Frazier was pointedly steered away from fighting Liston (and big punchers in general, including going forward in Joe’s career) - even at that point in time in the later 60s, Ali claimed that Liston still had the exact style and power to beat Joe.

Again, just quoted words for which anyone can attach any weight and motive they like, but they are there.

 

LOL, what would you know about good facts and proven sources?

Still so preoccupied with @swagdelfadeel and I.

Sad.

What about your version of “Day Of The Triffids” Sonny - somehow blinding all and sundry?

Indulge Klomp re your theories on that with your woeful lack of evidence in tow.

The evidence you provide is as valuable and substantial as those little notes you find in fortune cookies - don’t try and ride the backs of more serious posters based on your own overt bias.

 

It's hilarious because I haven't even commented once on the matter. Don't know why this worthless garbage continues to mention me, when it's clear I want nothing to do with him.

Worst poster on this board by quite some margin which is quite an achievement when you have the likes of kamikaze, and bomber around.

 

True, you haven’t even posted on this thread. The old living in his head, rent free.

 

Someone's butthurt because klompton killed you with facts...oh, poor boy go to your mom Swag.

 

Says a guy who's best achievement on this forum is making the god out of Sonny Liston's best opponent just to boost his hero's record.

 

It's doesn't matter what is said but who said, and since you said it doesn't matter because oppinion matters just from guys who knows some history and bring some facts, and evidences like klomtpon.
I guess you don't like what was said about your hero ha ha.

 

@Pugguy forgot to add @JohnThomas1 to this list.

 

Like I said, illuminate Klomp re your claims and “evidence” re Liston blinding opponents.

Who, what, why, where, when and how - leave no stone unturned. Show him what you’ve got.

You’re not a poster who anyone would want to be their ally - such is your lack of credibility.

By mere association, their case could be potentially impugned. If you ever agreed with me, I’d be rechecking my position..over and over.

I haven’t been “killed”, never have been. When the big boys are talking, you like playing the inconsequential, side line, cheer leading, sycophant. Time to sit down, cross your legs and put your pom poms away.

Like I said, Swag is living rent free in your head and so am I for that matter - which makes sense since you have plenty of SPACE to let in that head of yours - the vacancy sign is still strongly lit for many more prospective lodgers.

 

In all seriousness, we should at least pay the bloke for room and board.

 

Liston was old, for years taking a surgical path back against mostly selected opponents .. there are always dynamics kicking around but even old his style wasn’t preferable for Frazier ( even thought I certainly believed Joe takes out this version of Sonny) so I can obviously see why no push was made.

 

True. Though,I must say, it’s like staying at the Bates Motel, - who’d pay any money for that lovely experience?