School me on 3 Carloz Monson fights

On the "Deceptively Great ATG list", Monzon vies with Marciano as #1.

 

There are some amazing things he did against very high level opponents. His judgement of distance was ridiculous. He could make a guy miss by a centimeter and be in perfect position to count and did so with great consistency. Furthermore he did it with the verboten straight back lean, a la VItali, but with even greater effectiveness. He had a fckign radar in his head for his opponent's reach. His control of pace and output is masterful. Like a baseball pitcher, he threw his jab at varied speeds setting up his opponent for what was coming next, often a wicked and fast right hand, completely out of synch with the previous punches. He understood rounds, ratcheting up pressure by round, winning the war through the battles and not trying to make every battle the end of the war. He reminds me of a very few guys (Floyd for one) in this respect. He controlled the narrative of the fight. Even later, when he wasn't quite the physical specimen and was thrown off script, he was able to re-establish control in seconds. Totally unflappable.

 

Just finished watching Monzon-Valdez 2. Monzon again didn't look like anything special early on. It took a few rounds until his class began to show through IMO. He had a great 10th round where he threw a ton of punches. Didn't notice a whole lot to the body from Monzon. Stamina, work rate, and chin stand out.

Was trying to think of any other ATG who resembled Monzon style-wise while watching this, but couldn't come up with anybody really. Just doesn't look the part at times, but at the same time, I can see how he had the success he did.

 

I've only watched him in spots. A few rounds of the Briscoe fight where he was rocked, and highlights of other fights. Just watched Valdez 2, which is the first time I actually watched an entire fight of his. I saw some of the traits you mentioned, but would have to see more of him and pay closer attention to those things to fully grasp everything you described of him.

Just looking through his record, would Briscoe be the biggest puncher he faced?

 

Valdes was a hellacious puncher. Mundine could whack, too.

 

The most extraordinary thing about Monzon's record, for such a dominant fighter, is that in all of his 99 fights, he never scored a 1st round stoppage. Given the relative quality of some of the opponents in the first half of his career, that tells you a lot about his lack of explosiveness, which is of course the quality that first impresses on film.

To understand Monzon's greatness based on film, you're better approaching it not by asking what makes him so great, but rather by asking yourself what makes him so effective at winning fights, and specifically by asking yourself - how do you beat him?

You can win a boxing match by stoppage or on points.

Stoppage - Monzon was a huge MW, with an iron chin and was extremely durable. He was virtually impossible to blast out early at MW and virtually impossible to wear down.

Points - you can win on points by outboxing or outworking your opponent. Monzon was tall, rangy and excellent at controlling the distance, he was virtually impossible to outbox at range at MW in the era of same day weigh ins. He also had very good stamina, which, allied with his size (at MW), strength, durability and ring IQ, meant he was virtually impossible to outwork.

Did Monzon look explosive and flashy on film? Absolutely not.

Was Monzon difficult to beat at MW? Yes, as much so as just about anyone in boxing history.

 

I've only seen a few of his fights: the complete Valdes rematch, and portions of a few others. While watching these, the two matchups that crossed my mind that I would have loved to see were Michael Nunn & Thomas Hearns, guys who both were a bit taller, and were able to match him in reach. So far, I've only seen Monzon against shorter Middleweights who he was able to put his reach advantage to good use against.

Monzon definitely does not look very explosive. That means a guy like Hearns would be able to hang around for awhile, and no doubt would get a few right hands home. Would have been interesting to see what effect it would have had on Monzon, and how long it would have taken him to dispose of Hearns.

The Frank Tate version of Nunn, on his bike with all that speed, is the type of fighter I believe matches up best against Monzon judging by the little I've seen of him. I think Nunn's chin is better than he gets credit for. Stopped once in 62 fights, by an absolute bomb that he never saw coming. Obviously, it would have taken an accumulation of punches to dispose of Nunn, which would have been difficult if he was in safety-first mode. Nunn certainly looked faster of hand & foot to me. I'm wondering if Monzon had an opponent like that on his resume....that kind of speed, taller (6'1"), rangy, Southpaw, who boxed cautiously and made Monzon come forward. Whatever Monzon opponent is the closest comparison to that is the fight I'd like to take a look at next. So far, I've only seen Monzon against shorter Middleweights who he was able to put his reach advantage to good use against.

 

The one time I've seen him seriously rocked (9th round of Briscoe 2), I was impressed with how quickly he got himself together, and immediately regained control. That punch landed with a little more than a minute remaining in the round, and Monzon clearly ended up winning the remainder of the round.

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I think Hearns would give Monzon a lot of trouble for several rounds.

Carlos had high ring IQ and was adaptable, though. He'd have known that applying pressure (less relentless than Hagler, it would have taken him longer to catch up to Tommy) would be the best way to harness his advantages in stamina and chin. I'd take him to wear Hearns down for a stoppage in the second half of the fight.

 

Hi Greg.
The most salient of points " how do you beat him " for me only Greb or Robinson would have been able to carry that out, that's not to diminish Hagler, but I feel Monzon would be to big and immovable for Hagler to overcome, where as the other 2 were good movers, out of them I give Greb the best chance of a win, his most unique of styles would I believe befuddle and confuse the rather one paced and slow moving Monzon, but yes I see how he is a conundrum to lots of posters.
stay safe Greg, chat soon buddy.