Stop making excuses for Haney......

He didn't deserve a shot in 2017 and he wasn't a mandatory. Wilder was another cherry picker looked after by the We Be Crooks just like Haney. Ruiz never fought Lennox like you madr out but he got a ridiculous amount of shows at the WBA title due to his Puerto Rican ancestry.

 

The excuses will never stop due to the biases many hold for certain fighters. Many here had high hopes for Haney being something special, and seeing that erased has been a difficult emotion to overcome for them, hence the excuses. If it was a controversial decision I could see their point, but Garcia laid a severe beating on Haney. It hurt a lot of pundits as well, especially Tim Bradley, who hasn’t stopped crying yet.

 

Hahahaha,

Hearn wanted Garcia reweighed on fight Day.

Obviously not his fighter who probably was close to 170lb.

At least no rematchroom clause this time to give his fighter an undeserved immediate rematch after getting smashed with everything on his terms.

Must be cus he kept the title anyway.

 

An odd way to frame it, IMHO.

I mean - it's essentially allowing fighters to take a risk with their health by making the most extreme cuts possible for the biggest advantage in the ring.

But then, we don't allow them to risk their health taking PEDs to give advantages in the ring...

Why is one form of risking your health acceptable and the other not?

Come now... I don't think that's a very good example.

It's more like a fighter taking PEDs and getting caught against a fighter taking more PEDs , cycling more cleverly and not getting caught... In the end they're both on PEDs, or both way over weight.

I know we're arguing semantics a bit because we fundamentally agree that these loopholes shouldn't be there.

Where we diverge, I think, is that I see it as unsportsmanlike to exploit the loophole to the extreme - yes plenty of fighters do it, very few do it as much as Haney.

 

Technically - if (now illegall) PEDs were legalised, there wouldn't be anything unfair, or maybe dishonest will be a better word, about using them.
It's a bit different question though. Like I wrote, if We could find a reliable way of eliminating weight-cutting from the sport it would be only for the better for many reasons, safety being one of them. We don't have a disagreement here, like You also mentioned.

In terms of advantage gained, You can perhaps put it that way. If We talk about fair competition - then like I wrote earlier, there's a difference with one being legal and one being illegall or a breach of a contract/agreement. You have to expect that Your opponent can put on extra weight after weigh-in - and that He can put on more weight than You - but You can also expect your opponent to make weight since that's part of the fight agreement.

I know that Haney eventually agreed to go forward with a fight - and I don't have great level of sympathy for him. My problem is with the notion that pointing out that Ryan got an unfair advantage which is a taint on his victory - is making excuses for Haney, and with the "Taste of his own medicine" part.
Not having to drain your body to reach a full limit day before a fight is obviously a big advantage - and I believe Ryan did that with premeditation to gain an advantage in dishonest way, misleading his opponent.

By the way I think it's perfectly fair to say that Haney had big advantage over Lomachenko due to his size as well. I think it's pretty obvious, although I don't understand why people blame Haney for it. Loma moved up to challange himself. He could still be fighting at 130 if He wanted to, it's not like He was forced to fight guys that much bigger than him.

 

Stiverne was Wilder's mandatory in 2017: https://www.france24.com/en/20171005-unbeaten-wilder-defend-title-against-stiverne

Ruiz never fought Lennox, just like Loma didn't fight Haney as the champion. Ruiz was Lennox's mandatory, Lewis didn't want to fight him and vacated the WBA belt. Loma didn't want to fight Haney and vacated the WBC belt.

 

Yes, You don't seem to understand the process of making weight and then rehydrating/recovering from it - and how it impacts the body.

Pretty basic example for you. We have two fighters, both are 165 pounds on the night of the fight. One of them had to cut down to 140 the previous day, other one didn't have to make weight at all (To make the example more stark and obvious).
All the other things being equal, which one will have an advantage?

It's not BS. It's objective and verifiable fact.

Also, You can stop apologising ). It's just a boxing discussion. You started a thread on a forum - thus I think You had to expect responses from other members. Some people agree with You, some don't. Some people might change their mind a bit one way or the other as We get to the bottom of it.

I don't think I was disrespectful - and I certainly don't feel anyone was disrespectful to me. All fun, all good. Would be boring if We all had the same opinion on everything.

 

Why doesn't anyone see anything wrong with the fact guys have to "kill" themselves to make weight in the 1st place? That's a huge red flag.

 

He certainly was at disadvantage and there's an asterisk around that win for Gervonta for that reason also.
Difference is Garcia signed up for it in original contract - while Haney was put in that position after He already made weight himself and had a choice of going forward with a fight on those conditions or having the fight called off, after all the work was already done.

How big the advantage was is hard to quantify - but boxers and other athlethes who cut weight will tell You that the last couple pounds are the toughest on the body - and little things do matter on that level.

The current rules sort of do make a mockery out of weight-classes indeed, no argument here - although it's not so easy. It comes with a cost and there are fighters who cut less weight, yet complain that it impacts their performance. Heck, Prograis said after Zorilla fight - that He struggled making weight and it impacted his performance. Haney is apparently just better at it than most. It is some kind of a skill.

To solve the problem You'll need a systemic change. Otherwise You'll always have some people pushing it to the limits so if guy is big at one weight - and moves up to fight "guys his own size", He often ends up the smaller man at the new weight.
@Ricdog called it a vicious cycle and He's right. You either play the rules to your benefits, or other people will do it and You'll be the one "played".

 

Agree with this.

I don't like the way Haney and some other fighters play the system to wind up with a weight advantage, but that doesn't make Garcia's actions right, if he did as some suggest deliberately not make weight in order to get an advantage. He signed to fight at a certain weight and he should've kept his word.

As for the weight bully and cutting problems.... The whole point of the weight classes is to try and get something close to a level playing field for fighters. Clearly the system needs to change, there has to be a way to ensure that boxers are in the ring at their natural weight having been adequately hydrated at all times leading up to it. I don't know how that system looks, multiple weigh ins? Random weight checks?

 

There are some attempts in MMA world - where weight cutting is taken to even bigger extremes. Promotion called ONE FC is doing hydration tests from urine day before and day of the fight. I'm not sure how well it works tbh, it's been a while since I read about it - but it's interesting idea.

Fair enough. Thanks for good discussion.