Why did Ken Norton's jab trouble Ali so much but Liston's didn't?

But Ken Norton could not take a punch against punchers like George Foreman and later Earnie Shavers.

 

Well I give him some slack for the Shavers loss because he was clearly past prime, but he could've put up a much better effort if he had the IQ and adaptability of Liston.

Norton was just flat out shot against Cooney.

 

Yeah, I should have articulated better there. Scholastic achievement and book learning ("Think and Grow Rich") is different than ring IQ.

Charley Goldman would always ask Marciano, "Are you comfortable?" when positioning and schooling the Rock. But Sonny was not comfortable attempting to go over the top, while Ken didn't have the structure for executing straight rights.

Reports prior to the originally scheduled rematch between Ali and a 208 pound Liston in Boston made it clear that Sonny was not punching in combinations during training, couldn't execute the overhand right, and while faster, simply didn't have the hand speed, and was relying on his jab to box at range rather than cutting off the ring effectively.

Head to head, I don't see Norton beating Liston. Sonny had the straight punching to keep it at range, and the power to finish Ken when the time came. I also don't see Norton having the power to hurt Liston.

 

Agreed. But Ken Norton was in his prime in March 1974 against champion George Foreman, who blasted him out in two rounds in Caracas, Venezuela, Norton looked like a stumbling bum exiting a saloon, ala Otis Campbell from The Andy Griffith Show.

 

I really wanted to see Lyle-Norton in the mid 1970's, and even wonder about Ken taking on fellow USMC veteran Mac Foster around 1972. (Leon Spinks was also a USMC veteran BTW.)

Ali's the GOAT in part because he proved he could beat all styles and comers. But Ken never proved he could prevail over a top shelf puncher. He was the ringside analyst for Shavers-Tiger Williams in 1976. Earnie was exactly one year younger than Norton. (Ken's first bout after turning 30 was Ali II.)

Let's pair Shavers with Norton in April or May 1977. In April, Earnie stopped Howard Smith in two rounds, his warmup for Ali. This is the moment when his competitive stamina was at its best. In 1976, he decisioned Clark, stopped Tiger Williams near the end of round ten with Ken watching from ringside, and would win round 14 on all cards over Ali. In May, Norton very atypically crushed Bobick in 59 seconds, something Ken might have been unlikely to do to Shavers. But if Norton had been promised a rematch with Ali for beating Earnie in the Spring of 1977, he'd certainly have accepted that offer. Then, does Kenny or Earnie get that September shot at Ali? I think it's still Shavers after crushing Ken in one as he did two years later.

 

There was definitely something up with Ali’s jaw well before the 12th round in the first Norton fight.

Even Howard Cosell picked up on it - by about round 6?

IIRC, Howard might’ve suspected that Ali had lost a tooth, noting the way Ali was holding his mouth between rounds - I think he questioned Dundee on it live during the fight - and I think Dundee said it was all good - which he would say at any rate, of course.

It may not have been fully broken or fractured by that point (round 6) but with some injury to the jaw already sustained, it was likely ripe for more major damage as the fight progressed.

There is a recent thread re Boxing Chess Matches.

I always felt that Ken treated his fights against Ali like Chess Matches, fighting to the Futch blue print but still requiring Norton’s laser focus to react accordingly to the identified cues as and when appropriate.

You can see Ken really thinking in there - trying to make all the right moves and counter moves - and you can also see moments when it seems Ken is disappointed in himself for having allowed Ali to score against him.

If anyone has doubts as to the wisdom behind why prime Ali would do so much better against Norton - we have the two Chuvalo fights, pre and post exile, George doing that much better in the rematch.

George himself identified that Ali had a lost a step or two - crucial steps for the ilk of a fighter like prime Ali - when the difference between getting hit or not getting hit was quite fine but solidly maintained by an Ali at the peak of his defensive abilities.

 

Earnie was pretty on point himself in that fight though. Trained to the minute too. That was fight Earnie had been relishing for quite some time - and, true or not, Shavers felt that Norton was scared and had been ducking him.

Not sure if Ken had any real practical recourse to what Shavers brought to him on the night. Bad policy though it was, Ken was banging along pretty good for there for a little bit before a single left hook started him on the old slippery slope.

 

Earnie's career best imo.

 

I think that and Norton was excellent at skipping the jab which also created openings

 

lol my articulation was far worse in my response to Rich. Had to edit it about 20 times before I got it right.

 

Lol. I often do my proof reading/editing after the fact of posting - and that’s only if someone replies to the post in question - which I then re-read myself and think “How the **** did they even understand that ****!” Damage control.

 

Usually I do, but I've been running around day. Busy with college finals, work, and my nephews.

 

Quite the juggling act.

 

Patterson's jab wasn't as good as Norton's nor as long,standing square on, in that peek a boo stance meant Floyd's jab lost a lot of its range and effectiveness,imo.

 

Not correct, Norton and Ali were a shade under 6'3''.