Which 1970 s Heavyweight Is Far Too Overrated, IYO?

best Ali ever looked was against Cleveland Williams, about the same size as him, and Ernie Terrell, a bigger guy than he was.

 

Cleveland Willams was never the same after surviving getting shot not an impressive win. Terrell was the same size and was way slower and Ali couldn't finish him

 

Moorer is top 4 or 5 in the 90s. Quarry and Bonavena aren't that in the 70s. Quarry might be 6 or 7 though.

 

Moorer is is not top 4, and probably not top 5. He beat Holy when Evander was having a heart attack and organ failure, and still needed some dodgy judging. Hey, he got the win and gets credit, but marginal guys like Botha, Schulz, Cooper, Stewart, aging Bonecrusher, Bean and Jirov were his best back-up wins. The losses to Foreman and Tua and Castillo were all humiliating in their own way.

I don't see how he gets above Holy, Lewis, Tyson, Bowe, McCall...even Foreman and Tua would be tough sells for me.

 

Norton's my pick. He not only never proved he could beat a top shelf puncher, the only one he did not avoid during his mid 1970's prime was the one he had to face for the Championship, and then he got crushed in two rounds.

Leon Spinks has one great HW stoppage win over an opponent who similarly would've destroyed Kenny, specifically Bernardo Mercado (one uniquely one punched Berbick in a single round), at the big Columbian's absolute peak. After that, nobody questioned that Leon had EARNED his shot at Holmes.

Ron Lyle would've wrecked Norton. So would Shavers after Henry Clark I & II, then Tiger Williams and Ali, when Earnie's competitive stamina peaked, but he wouldn't need that endurance to wipe out Norton at any time during the 1970's. Ron Stander, an insanely tough customer, somehow managed to walk through Shavers fire to wear him down and out in 1970, and emphatically identified Earnie as the hardest puncher he ever faced by far, after the end of his long career. (Earnie's only two opponents who said otherwise were Ellis, who never knew what hit him. and JQ, who told Don Dunphy in the ring that, "He never hit me!," only to learn differently when he saw the next day's videotape. For his part, Jerry said that Mac Foster hit him the hardest of anybody he remembered getting hit by. Earnie did admit he socked JQ pretty solidly.) Styles make fights. In 1973, Jerry Quarry and his two major victims, Lyle and Shavers, would've killed the Norton who split wins with Ali.

Ali won title bouts against four guys who Norton could not have survived. Ken was crushed by Foreman and Shavers. Ken couldn't have beaten his good friend Frazier, and Lyle would've flattened him when Ron challenged Ali instead.

Coetzee is another within the 1970's who Ken would've been flattened by, and let's add Knoetze to that list.

Jerry Quarry knocked out Mac Foster in Mac's greatest performance. Over the Championship Distance, an overweight Ali handled Mac pretty easily, aggressively making the fight over the first five rounds to try making good on a fifth round knockout prediction. If Norton went after Mac like that, he'd have gotten his block knocked off by a counter. One did not counter Ali successfully after Cooper decked him.

Jerry was completely shot when Norton produced what Kenny said was his peak performance, clinched by the hardest punch of his career, a right uppercut which tore open Jerry's face. But this wasn't the JQ of two years earlier, or of Spencer and Mathis. Jerry proved even at the end of their actual bout that he had superior firepower. Referee John LoBianco jumped in to stop it just as JQ buckled Ken's knees with a hard right, then LoBianco leapt back quickly to give Jerry a chance to rally. Seconds later, Johnny did stop it correctly during a barrage of clean shots by Norton.

Kenny had been training for five months to generate his career peak. Jerry took that bout on 18 days notice. Ken's physique was a genetic gift, like Mike Weaver's body. They looked great whether in shape or not. Unlike Ali, you couldn't tell by the appearance of their bodies whether or not they trained hard. Jerry was 29 years old for Norton.

What happens if JQ had also trained for five months? He was in shape for Lyle, went 5 ( 4 KO) - 0 - 0 for the best year of any HW in 1973. (Yeah, Yeah, George dethroned a much diminished post FOTC Frazier in two, but then, Joe Roman in only one round? C'mon, Ali would defend it four to six times a year. If he hadn't undertaken the Inoki farce, he was on track to defend it five or six times in 1976. But that cheap shooting Inoki damaged his legs so much he had to have them drained of blood in a hospital, forever taking away his ability to plant his legs for unloading punches with power. That's why Evangelista went the distance with him. BTW, Kenny sent Muhammad flowers and visited him in the hospital, as he did when Ali's jaw was fractured. He was classy that way, and they openly rooted for each other when not opposing one another in the ring.)

Why did Ken break Ali's jaw? Because Muhammad had a neglected impacted wisdom tooth on the left side, and Norton's surprise overhand right was perfect for reaching and hitting that sweet spot just as Ali had his mouth open to trash talk Ken in the second round. (Immediately following the match, Dundee and Ali's corner claimed the fracture was sustained in the first round, but there's nothing in the first three minutes to suggest that. Norton did not land a clean right in that round. In fact, he landed so few rights that the ones he nailed are noteworthy. If Kenny deserved that decision, it was on the strength of his excellent hooks to the body.)

Ken pivots his right foot towards Muhammad as he drives his initial jaw breaking right through at 10:03, followed by a hard left hook to the body, a fine follow-up. You can see between the second and third rounds the careful attention his corner is giving him, and that Muhammad is not talking. He then cautiously protects the left side of his jaw from further rights.

At 22:03, Howard Cosell askes Angelo Dundee, "Angie! What's wrong with your fighter? Tell me NOW!" At 25:48, Ken hits that jaw with a double jab that sends Ali way back as Muhammad gets away from it. Again. Ali is not talking between rounds seven and eight ay 26:45. Cosell at 27:32..."Ali just hasn't been right and I think he may have cracked a TOOTH in his mouth judging by the way he's holding his mouth...not with his hands of course, but the mere structure of his mouth. Then, Cosell asks Ferdie Pacheco, MD, "Ferdie, is there anything wrong with Muhammad's mouth?" Dr Pacheco replies, "No, I think he's loosened a TOOTH, but there's no FRACTURE, there's no BROKEN anything."

Yes, all these live comments point to Ali's jaw having already been broken long prior to round 12, and that second round right of Ken's was by far his hardest right to connect to that point. At the start of round nine, Cosell speculates that Ali may be ahead on points at 30:30, but continues cautioning viewers about California's scoring system in Norton's hometown. At 31:14, Norton loops an overhand right that connects, possibly aggravating that jaw fracture. At 38:17 during round 11, Yank Durham tells Cosell, "I have the fight even going into this round," then Joe Frazier replies, "I have the fight very close." Both Cosell and myself have Ali the very clear, decisive winner of round 11. So for Durham to have it even after ten would mean he'd have it a draw after 12.

Norton and his camp might've liked to believe that his loudly cracking right at 42:20 during round 12 was the jaw breaker, but Muhammad saw it coming and turned away. Slowing YouTube down to 0:25 proves it didn't really connect, although it may have aggravated the fracture a bit. Muhammad's reaction may have merely been to protect that left side of his jaw he'd now been boxing with for ten rounds.

At 42:35, with 56 seconds left in the bout was indeed a hard and solid connection though, and Cosell appropriately reacted in excitement to it. At 42:46 with 46 seconds left, "got in there, and there's blood in his mouth too!...in fact blood is all over!..." At 43:06 with 26 seconds left in the match, Norton again hits Ali's long fractured and now bloody mouth with another flush and solid right, which could have certainly opened up that fracture even more. Nonetheless, Muhammad continues punching back, and this is an exciting final round in what had been a dull bout until Ali's decisive 11th round (when Eddie Futch claimed the fracture occurred, which could only have Norton's right at 38:57 with 35 seconds left in that round, the only right he scored with in round 11) and what I see as a close final round for Kenny, who's right and jab weren't as important to the scoring as his hooks to the body. Ali blocked and slipped shots a lot.

Jaw initially fractured at 10:03. Cosell asked Dundee what's wrong at 22:03. Howard suspects a cracked tooth at 27:32. Ferdie Pacheco admits there may be a loosened tooth, but explicitly denies a FRACTURE at 27:54, that there's no BROKEN anything. Can't blame him for lying in that situation. 31:14, 38:57, 42:20, 42:36 and 43:06. You be the judge. Again, you can mute and slow things down to 0.25 with the CC captioning also on, so you can see what's being said as you watch in slo-mo. Did dissenting judge Fred Hayes have it right at 6-5 for Ali? Did UPI also have it right at 6-4 for Ali? If this wasn't in Norton's San Diego with California's convoluted scoring system, but instead in NYC's Madison Square Garden, who takes the decision?

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After this review, Cosell really did tell it like it was, live from ringside, not with a post fight voice over. This was Norton's biggest win because of a neglected impacted wisdom tooth of Ali's, fighting in his hometown of San Diego, and having the decision go his way. But a split decision is entirely appropriate for reflecting how close it really was.

While the subjective decision and fractured jaw was an impressive career making result for Kenny, Norton himself was NOT impressive in this bout, as Cosell heavily criticized both.

Now, here's the "unthinkable," since Compubox statistics only tell a fraction of a match story. Did Muhammad Ali deserve to go 3-0-0 against Ken Norton? (Generalship, defense, missed or blocked punches, effective aggression, and round breakdowns also need to be factored in. If, hypothetically, Ali or Norton landed most of their jabs, power shots and total punches in just a few rounds, what help is that to them in the scoring? In Ali-Norton II, Muhammad staggered Ken and earned Norton's respect for his power, a key factor in the later rounds.)

 

There's no concessions with best vs best. If Holmes was brought forward faster or around earlier he may have run into the likes of Foreman and co and never recovered.

 

I wouldn't even put Moorer in the top 10 for the 1990s his entire legacy is based on one fight against an opponent known for being erratic and inconsistent and he was extremely carefully matched and avoided virtually everyone thought to pose any sort of threat. He would have to have beaten more of his contemporaries for such a lofty ranking in my view.

I'd put Moorer behind Lewis Holyfield Bowe Tua McCall Tucker to name a few.

 

Absolutely right.

Larry only got there with Shavers I, in a quantum upgrade performance from Ibar Arrington which shocked Howard Cosell. Holmes had been on television before and failed to impress. But winning 34 of 36 minutes over the Shavers who decisioned Henry Clark, stopped Tiger Williams in ten and gave Ali hell over the Championship Distance is crazy.

Tiger Williams, if he hadn't the mentality of being Ali's sparring partner, could've beaten Larry. In that bout, when Roy did briefly deploy his long left jab, he got much the better of Holmes with it. And he staggered Larry in the final seconds with a left hook, a virtually unknown weapon to wobble Holmes with. At no time prior to Shavers I would Larry have been ready for the HW elite.

 

Hi Buddy.
Thanks for prompt reply, no need to apologize for miscommunication, if we all did that the board will be overrun, it was more your choice of words that I felt was uncalled for, but I am old now, and maybe not used to today's parlance, that aside, I except your post was interpreted wrong my myself, let's hope we can have nice friendly chats going forward.
stay safe HK.

 

Moorer IMO is above everyone you have there except Lewis and Bowe. Tuckers peak was in the 80s.

Besides Holyfield none of the top 90s HWs(Lewis, Bowe, Moorer, Holyfield, Tyson,Foreman) fought more than 2 of the elite 90s HWs. Bowe only fought Holyfield. So I don't know how that should be held against Moorer when that was the standard.

 

Moorer's entire heavyweight rep rests on one fight. Take Holyfield out of his resume you have basically zilch. I don't see how you can assess him so highly based on just one fight. Brewster is not one of the best of his era based on beating Wlad so why would you think one win over Holyfield catapults him into the top 5 or even top 10.

These other guys still have more depth to their resumes than Moorer. Tucker in addition to McCall beat Douglas and Norris. McCall beat Akinwande in addition to Lewis. Tua has Makaev and Oquendo in addition to Rahman.

 

He was a step up alright. Holmes did have some quality experience sparring tho with the likes of Ali and Frazier so that would have accounted for a fair bit i reckon. I agree tho he likely would not have been ready and he had plenty of tools to be really well suited against Shavers.

I'll have to watch those last seconds again. Tho it was predominantly right hands that caught Holmes he did have problems with left hooks at times. Witherspoon put Holmes in trouble with a left hook in their bout which kicked off one of the great rounds. Pretty sure Weaver may have tagged him hard too.

Tiger would have beat a lot of people if all the sparring stories are taken as gospel. Reminds me of a teacher on Australian Idol, they kept telling us he was amazing in rehearsals but he kept gagging when he hit the live audience.

 

I don't remember if I said this or not because I don't think I answered properly and this thread has devolved quite a bit.

The most overrated heavyweight from the 70's is Earnie Shavers imo. People use Deontay Wilder as an example of how weak this heavyweight era has been. Yet a worse version of Deontay Wilder, a proto-Wilder if you will in Earnie Shavers is used as an example of how strong the 70's was.

Likewise, a lot of people both in classic and elsewhere seem to believe that if Wilder beats someone then it proves the person that Wilder beat sucks, and if someone beats Wilder then it doesn't prove anything because Wilder himself sucks.

This same standard is not applied to Shavers however, and his losses and victories are seen as milestones for other fighters.

How does that work?

 

Ken Norton may have not won a title fight but he did win a vacant title (Leon Spinks refused to fight Norton) by decisioning Jimmy Young by a split 15 round decision on Nov 5 1977 in Las Vegas, Nevada. Norton in his first defense of his WBC Title lost it to Larry Holmes by a split 15 round decision on June 9 1978.

 

The Jimmy Young fight wasn't a title fight. It was a final eliminator. He was given the WBC belt after Spinks refused to fight him.