The overwhelming praise for Sonny Liston's abilities

Tbf he was injured and old as hell by the time the fight happened but yeah

 

Considering your laughable posts regarding Ali, and Holmes, I'll consider this a compliment on Liston's behalf.

 

If you could move on Sonny and had power for later rounds, you could outlast and stop him. Not sure how Leotis does in 1962 or 1963 with Sonny, but he wasn't Patterson, and he certainly had late round power. He probably takes Sonny into round six or seven, where Liston did have a number of stoppage wins. Leotis might not win a round, but he did box a badly deteriorating and lung diseased Sonny as Whitehurst did twice, very smartly.

Was Sonny all that much? Summerlin, Marshall, Whitehurst, Big Cat and Joiner all stepped in the ring with him more than once (obviously Patterson did it for the title, so I wouldn't count him here), whereas the only two to rematch Foreman were Peralta and Frazier (although Lyle always wanted a rematch with George in the worst way - like Frazier, Ron was afraid of nothing).

 

The scoring was pretty even after round 6 but Sonny was shot by then--he was ready to go. He probably would have been TKO/KO'd in the next 2-3 rounds tops!

 

Considering your inability to present a coherent argument to debunk me I'll consider you disagreeing with me a sign that I'm right

 

Oh trust me, I'm more than capable of tearing your paper-thin arguments to shred. Unfortunately, I'm pre-occupied with end of semester finals, and have a limited amount of time. I'm certainly not wasting it on the likes of you.

 

I'll believe it when I see it so far your arguments have fallen quite flat

 

Remember that Sonny Liston did not have the hunger since winning the title from Floyd Patterson in Sept 1962. As was mentioned in his autobiography by HBO, there were no crowds to greet him at the airport following the Patterson bout, even President John F. Kennedy and his brother, Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy were against Liston because of his ties to organized crime. Liston had to think to himself, Is The Title Worth Having? There was no prestige in the title for Liston, he did not train like a hungry fighter as he once had pre Patterson. He continually got harassed by challenger Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali), who sought to challenge The Big Ugly Bear.

 

I’m pretty sure Liston tried extending the date of the first Ali fight because of the poor condition his shoulder was in as well.

 

Sonny had his demons and his weaknesses. That can’t be denied. The man probably had no real moral compass at any point in his life. But prime, hungry Sonny as a prize fighter …

 

True.
He's good fighter but not top 5 p4p and he isn't that unbeatable.
We can't judge and rank someone based on what could or should happen but based on what really happened and the truth is that he lost 2 biggest fights of his life and lost against two LHW journeymans.
I can't call that atg or top 5 p4p and make him look like a unbeatable monster because he isn't one.

 

Why do you figure his fights with Ali are the two biggest fights of his career? From Sonny's perspective, I think winning the title from Patterson and successfully defending it a year later would be considered his most important fights.

 

He forms a very odd parallel with Marciano in a couple of ways.

Marciano was known as small even for his era, and had the shortest reach of any heavy, but the Rock will always be known for fighting with his nose split in half. Liston was a genetic freak for his day with the huge reach and fists, but some remember him for fighting with a broken jaw, and others for the quitjobs against Ali.

Also, whereas Marciano fought great but aging fighters, Liston fought prime, but mostly merely good fighters. Maybe that's not entirely fair...maybe they would have been great had they not run into the wrecking ball. Hard to say.

I end up arguing against Liston a lot, because it has become popular by some to rank him in the top five, which is out of the question in terms of actual accomplishment, but I certainly respect him and have room for him in the top ten.