Which 1970 s Heavyweight Is Far Too Overrated, IYO?

Jimmy Young defeated George Foreman by unanimous decision on March 17 1977, decking Foreman in the last round to ensure the victory. Norton had finished destroying undefeated Duane Bobick in the first round. But you are correct about the eliminator.

 

It depends on how important you think punching power is to boxing.

Muhammad Ali was the fastest HW in boxing history, according to Nat Fleischer. Earnie Shavers was the hardest puncher in boxing history. It boils down to that. Quick Tillis has said on camera that Tyson hit like a "homo/sissy" compared to Earnie. (In fact, there's no question that Mike decked James with a flash KD, while Tillis looked dead on his face for nine seconds from a ninth round Acorn bomb.) Holmes has been more diplomatic, but said the same thing, and Larry got up from the hardest punch Shavers ever landed. Leroy Caldwell said that Earnie hit harder than Lyle and Foreman combined.

EVERYBODY who remembered getting hit by Earnie said he was the hardest puncher. Most recently, Joe Bugner said it. With one punch, Shavers ruined the career of Jimmy Ellis, who got up from what Joe Frazier indicated to Jim Clash might have been the hardest punch he ever landed. ALL six common opponents of Shavers and Foreman said Earnie was the hardest puncher they were hit by.

Henry Clark was hit by Sonny Liston (who Chuck Wepner emphatically states was a much harder puncher in Sonny's final bout than a youthful George Foreman had previously been), Jeff Merritt, Bernardo Mercado (who uniquely one punched Berbick), Ken Norton, Mac Foster, Jack O'Halloran (who Foreman rated among his top five punching opponents, and George can be seen actively ducking Jack's shots) and Earnie Shavers. Clark survived his first match with Earnie in Paris (where Shavers boxed stylishly and smartly with a bruised right hand, as mentioned by Wikipedia), then Henry was wiped out in two on the Ali-Norton III undercard, and Clark rated Earnie tops over Liston for power. (The footage supports this.)

Ron Lyle: "He hit me and the floor came up!" Muhammad Ali: "He hit me so hard my kin folk in Africa felt it!" Quick Tillis (repeatedly): "He hit so hard he could turn p-i-s-s into gasoline and today into tomorrow!"

Mythology is one thing. Overwhelming opponent consensus is another. (In the case of Jerry Quarry, the great exception, he exclaimed in his post fight interview with Don Dunphy that, "He never hit me!," only to be stunned at viewing it the next day. For his part, Earnie said he really blasted Jerry. For his part, JQ told Dunphy after stopping Mac Foster in Mac's peak career performance that, "He can hit like heck, man!" Jerry came back from the hardest punch of Mac's career to electrifyingly stop him moments later as the crowd's groans turned into jet screaming cheers.)

Henry Cooper said that Floyd Patterson had faster hands than Ali. But NOBODY who remembered being hit by Shavers in the 1970's and 1980's said anybody hit harder. Rondon was a big step up in class for Shavers, but Earnie did knock Vincente out of the ring as time expired. (Previously, the far more skilled Bob Foster and Ron Lyle stopped Rondon in two, but Lyle had already obtained some serious experience with Caldwell, Manuel Ramos over ten, O'Halloran, and was facing Rondon in Denver. Ron wasn't afraid of anything, and that included getting schooled by Jimmy Young twice, as he sought self improvement in boxing. For his part, only Earnie ever floored Young, and he did it with a hook in both their bouts.)


Earnie Shavers was to his day and age what Max Baer was to his, the supreme power puncher in boxing. And what Jerry Quarry did to him is a large part of JQ's legend (along with ruining Lyle's 60 Minutes profile by dropping Ron from the unbeaten ranks, and the crazy comeback against the undefeated Mac Foster, Jerry raised hell from 1966 to 1974).

Lyle-Shavers is insane. Boys at school the next day were all arguing that Earnie beat Ali and proved he could go the Championship Distance.

Norton was wrecked three times during the 1970's, by Garcia in 1970 when he was 26 and in his athletic prime, by Foreman in 1974, and by Shavers in 1979. Age does not explain away a one round starching, not when he had seven rounds of domination against LeDoux and a SD over Cobb right before Tex became a top three HW ahead of him. (Tex was the best HW of the early 1980's who did not hold a title. Yes, I was hoping for a war with Cooney. I didn't think Gerry could beat Cobb, a guy he couldn't hurt. Tex ran all over Dokes in their rematch before that accidental butt and a Don King rigged TD for Michael.)

Deontay Wilder? I don't follow boxing anymore, and haven't for decades, but I know this for a fact. Wilder can never have the chance to win round 14 on all three cards against the GOAT. (Ali remembered that Shavers was the hardest puncher he was ever hit by, but for the only time in his career, he had no recollection of most of a fight.)

Earnie knew his limitations and was extremely intelligent, in and out of the ring. Lyle emphasized how smart and sharp he was with his punching, and Shavers got out of a bad contract with Don King by noting that Don had misspelled his name as Ernie, a fact which actually delighted DK. (Don has remained friends with Larry Holmes, each understanding where the other was coming from. That was also true for DK and his first HW, Shavers.)


I stand by Norton as my pick. Mac Foster would've killed him in 1970 (again, when Kenny was 26), and he wouldn't have survived Lyle or Shavers at any time during the mid 1970's. I also don't see Norton defeating Jerry Quarry in 1973. Even when Ken fought an utterly shot and badly undertrained JQ in 1975, Jerry buckled him with a short right seconds before it was stopped.

 

Reynaldo Snipes decked Larry Holmes in Nov 1981. Ken Norton's kryptonite was punchers throughout his whole career, George Foreman, Jose Luis Garcia, Earnie Shavers, and Gerry Cooney.

 

Over the entirety of the 1970's, a 6 or 7 for JQ is fair, but he was only a top contender until Frazier II in 1974 (a masterpiece of unexpected jabs and right hands by Joe engineered by Futch, utilizing Frazier's reach advantage).

From 1970 to 1974, only Frazier and Ali were able to beat Jerry. Leroy Caldwell stated that Lyle's punching power was equal to Foreman's, and JQ took everything Ron could unload. (Lyle was a better boxer than George, with 12 round stamina, but he didn't box Foreman. When George came back, so did Ron, wanting a rematch in the worst way. Lyle had once had his death certificate signed and wasn't afraid of anything.) If Jerry could walk through shots from peak Mac Foster, Shavers and Lyle, he could take them from Foreman.

 

Jimmy Young is the most overrated heavyweight of the 1970s ... bar none.

The guy fought for 21 years, and he was good for about three of those years. But all some people talk about are those three years, and the other 18 years they choose to completely ignore.

Some heavyweights fight for decades, and lose one or two fights, and people are hyper-critical of those losses. Young won 35 fights and lost or drew 21 fights. He was, in total, average.

He was pretty much an easy win for most heavyweights for the better part of 18 years out of his career. And he was in his 20s and 30s for all his losses.

He was NOT one of the best heavyweights of that era.

In his 20s, he fought a totally unmotivated and unprepared Ali (probably the worst Ali looked until he fought Holmes and Berbick) who was looking ahead to another title fight five weeks later. Still, Young lost. Young fought Norton and lost. Young fought Shavers twice and never won (was stopped one of those times). Young fought Randy Newmann (the referee) and lost. Fought Roy "Tiger" Williams and lost. Lost to nobody Clay Hodges. Drew with a bad British heavyweight Billy Aird. Was embarrassed and lost two fights to novice Ossie Ocasio. Was easily swept by a young Michael Dokes.

In fact, he was completely finished as a serious contender by the time he was 30.

In his 30s, he got his face split in two by Gerry Cooney and stopped. Went on a six-fight losing streak where he failed to score a single win over Pat Cuillo, Phil Brown, Tony Fulilangi, Greg Page, Tony Tubbs and Tony Tucker. Lost to total journeymen Chuck Gardner, Tim 'Doc' Anderson and Eddie Richardson.

Any claims he got old just don't wash, because he was bad during the first five years of his career, and bad during the last 12 years of his career, and was finished as a serious threat by 30. He just went on bit of a run for a few years in the middle of an otherwise journeyman career.

Then again, a lot of ordinary fighters go on a run for a spell.

His ultimate claim to fame is he defeated George Foreman in San Juan when George was the #1 contender. Seemingly a huge win, when you consciously choose to ignore the scoring was beyond ridiculous and Foreman was hospitalized for dehydration. Foreman was such a beast at the time, it appeared Young was awarded rounds if Foreman didn't knock him down. Puerto Rican Judge Waldemir Schmidt gave Young 10 rounds.

When guys like Steve Cruz upset people like Barry McGuigan in the heat, people understand upsets happen in conditions like that. They don't elevate Cruz GREAT status.

With Young, that win (for some) lifted him to a ridiculously lofty status.

Take away the lone Foreman upset win (under bizarre conditions), and Jimmy Young's record isn't all that much better than Chuck Wepner's.

 

The climate had to affect Jimmy Young too, it was not his fault that George Foreman was too busy doing his scowling Sonny Liston imitation instead of training, getting acclimated to the humidity of San Juan, Puerto Rico. The scoring was crazy but George once again proved that he did not have the stamina, climate or no climate to last 10 rounds. Zaire was humid but it did not affect Muhammad Ali. Just my opinion.

 

The climate didn't affect Cruz the same. Or Maxim. Or any number of people who didn't suffer dehydration in a fight when their opponents did.

And the scoring in the Young-Foreman fight was just bad. Young was expected to get pasted. So, if Young remained upright, the round was his, whether he deserved it or not.

 

Snipes shocked everybody after not taking a forward step against chunky 201 LB LHW EMM, and he hadn't displayed power with Jumbo Cummings either. But watching the live broadcast, I saw what was about to come behind that textbook double jab. Later, Mr. Snipes decked the durable Berbick with that right.

Yes, he decked Larry and had Holmes in serious trouble, but much overlooked is the fact that only the Easton Assassin stopped Renaldo until his career finale in 1993 saw him stopped in ten rounds.

Both Jerry and Garcia (see what I did there?) buckled Ken (Garcia in their rematch when he was hopelessly out of shape like JQ had just been), but this was right at Norton's peak, and they were probably the best punchers Ken beat, along with O'Halloran. Norton had great management that protected him well and made him seem as formidable as his physique. (Ken, like Mike Weaver, who Norton nicknamed "Hercules," were sharp critics of weight training BTW. Ken took Shavers to task for lifting weights while commenting on Earnie-Tiger Williams, and Mike was injured and sidelined for a bit as WBA Champion while experimenting with weights. Weaver has made it clear his physique is an inborne gift, and it was essentially the same at 203 for Holmes I as it was at 234 for Holmes II. Michael Spinks also had the same physique at 170 for David Sears that he had at 212 for Tyson. They were definitely clean athletes.)

 

Young would not have been competitive against Ali when Muhammad came in at 220 six weeks later for Richard Dunn (who Young had actually knocked out in 1974), but Jimmy did own Lyle twice in the decade, the second time on television right before Foreman. He did blow it badly against a severely out of shape Ali.

I still stand by Norton, as Ken couldn't survive Foreman, and wouldn't have survived Lyle, let alone 2X. Young also did get off the floor to draw with Earnie in their rematch, and Jimmy dismissed his first stoppage at the hand of Shavers by saying his nose was only bloodied up a little.

I do think Young might be the second most overrated after Norton. I've never watched Norton-Young, but understand it was very close, Ken taking it by concentrating on body work for winning a decision. (Jimmy himself keyed body counters to decision Foreman.) Young defeated one Champion (Foreman), three title challengers four times (Lyle 2X, Dunn FWIW, Roman FWIW), drew with a fourth challenger (Shavers II) and was close with a fifth (Norton) during the 1970's. He did lose a UD to Ali's uncertain and ill conditioned initiative, failing to counter effectively as he did with George. (Comments on YouTube express much disgust with Young.)

Ken was decked an unbelievable number of times, especially in his early career, and aside from the wild Bobick anomaly, was among the slowest starting HWs ever. (Frazier gets a ridiculously bad rap as a slow starter, but Joe knocked Machen out of the ring in the opening round, nearly dropped Ramos in the first three minutes, took six seconds to floor Ziggy before putting him down to stay at 1:36, withstood 93 opening round shots from JQ to return fire with 64 of his own, cautiously took the opening round from Bob Foster after the identically sized 6'4" 188 pound Garcia had crushed his friend Norton, and had Daniels on the floor in the opening round. He could be a much faster starter than Kenny.)