The overwhelming praise for Sonny Liston's abilities

Excellent points Kas. I also like how it’s vaguely stated that he lost the two biggest fights of his career - never mind that they were losses to the one and the same fighter, an ATG himself who many place at # 1.

Also, never mind that Maine was a hot mess all round - Ali being a prime contributor to the chaos.

Liston wasn’t even afforded a count but despite same, Walcott, per Fleischer’s barking, saw fit to wave it off AFTER the fight had recommenced.

 

The Maine fight was a debacle all round - and Ali was as much to blame for that as anyone else. Trying to make Liston the fall guy doesn’t hold any water.

Liston was already “officially” 32 when he faced a sublime, near nought to prime version of Ali in Miami.

Also, Sonny was likely that much older than the “official” record suggested.

Marciano was out of the game by age 32 - after struggling with an old, blown up LH in Archie Moore who also decked Rocky.

Just some obvious and much needed perspective.

 

Exactly Cec, and I might also add, if I may, Sonny’s excellent 12 UD over Machen. A real feather in his cap, imo, and a fight that proved Liston’s all round abilities and IQ.

 

All good points too, Pug

 

Also the fact he was tied to the mafia tainted many of his wins in the eyes of many fans, myself included.

But if the experts say it, I must believe it. Maybe he really did hit that hard after all!

 

Ali was 21 or so he when he faced Liston. If a 31 year old Ali would of faced Liston he wouldn't say Liston was the scariest.

Mike Tyson's opinion on who he thought was the scariest means something? Tons of fighters said Foreman was the scariest fighter they ever faced.

Chuck Wepner said Liston hit him the hardest? Which is funny since a 20 year old Foreman who only had 3 fights stop Wepner in 3 while Liston took 10 or so rounds to stop him.

Floyd Patterson was a 180 pound chinny guy. You think If Foreman, David Tua, Tommy Morrison, Lennox Lewis etc would of landed their best punches on Patterson they wouldn't stop him as well?

Lol does Bert Sugar opinion mean anything? This is the same Bert Sugar who didn't have Lennox Lewis rank in the top 10 heavyweights of all time but he had Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Gene Tunney and Marciano, 4 guys who weighed between 170 and 190 so not heavyweights by modern standards ahead of freaking Lennox Lewis. Also did Sugar get in the ring with Liston? So how did he know how powerful Liston's jab was? But guess what? Pretty much every person who got in the ring with Foreman, and I don't mean 180 pound people like Patterson said Foreman's jab was the most powerful, but guys like Lennx Lewis and Larry Holmes also had great jabs.

George Foreman was a 19 year old kid when he sparred Liston. Also Foreman says nice stuff about everybody now days. Foreman also claimed to be afraid of Mike Tyson when he was the one who called out Tyson. Foreman also claimed that he knew he could never beat Lennox Lewis even when he was at his peak. Which is funny since Foreman actually was the one calling out Lennox Lewis and Foreman's own brothter Roy Foreman said Foreman doesn't actually believe Lewis could beat him.

 

Foreman was still 19 years old. You were never in the ring with Foreman period so you dont know how strong a 19 year old or 40 year old Foreman was. Also my point stands. Foreman says nice stuff about everybody. Foreman also claimed he was afraid of Frazier and his knees were shaking doing their weigh in. Foreman's knees weren't shaking doing their weigh in.

If you think a 31 year old boxers mentality would be the same as a 21 year old boxers mentality then I don't know what o tell you kid. But logic would dictate if Ali was 31 and fought Liston he wouldn't be afraid.

Cooper, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Quarry or even Ali didn't punch as hard as George Foreman, David Tua, Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitshko, Riddick Bowe and tons of others, Foreman, Tyson, Tua, Leewis, Klitschko either one, Bowe and various other 200 plus pound heavyweights who could bang would of knocked out chinny Patterson as well. Also Patterson never faced these guys. So him giving credit to somebody he faced means he wouldn't give credit to the guys I named if he faced them as well?

It is like somebody Deontay Wilder faced said he was the hardest puncher he faced it mean something?

Tyson saying Liston is scary means something? So if a boxer says something then it must be true? HOF Larry Holmes said Butterbean punched harder than Tyson so it must be true now right? We should all worship Butterbean right? Tyson is giving credit to a dead boxer he respected.

Also on that same note because one fighter saiid another fighter punched him the hardest it means he is telling the truth? Great you brought up James Tillis. According to him Mike Tyson is a light puncher. Lennox Lewis isn't much of a puncher according to Shannon Briggs. Sure Lennox Lewis knocked him out.

Chuck Wepner didn't have great defense. So Liston and Foreman was able to land. A George Foreman was who only had 3 fights was able to stop Wepner way quicker than Liston did. You want more? Ali said Foreman hit harder than Liston , was stronger than Liston but Liston was scarier. So I guess Ali knows less about boxing than Wepner did right?

 

if I can add one quote, Angelo Dundee said that Liston would crush Holyfield like a bug... of course I don't know if it's true but the fact is that all the boxers appreciated Liston very much. Plus, we saw what happened when he was in the ring. He crushed his opponents like matchsticks, his problem is that he was too good, the fights with Patterson have no history and at that time there was no highly respected fighter, such as Rocky Marciano. Although if Liston had knocked him out they would have said Rocky was old. The eye test says Liston was absolutely one of the greatest. He just didn't have the competition, and when he did, he walked away from boxing. Let's remember that a victory over Clay would not impress anyone. Liston could have ended his career and no one would have been interested.

 

I doubt Tyson ever met Liston. Tyson would been 3-4 years old when Liston died. Most people in any field are complimentary about anybody in their field who is old, dead, or otherwise nonthreatening. They usually aren't as complimentary about their peers or people they consider to be a threat.

The Joe Louis quote seems like a "backhanded compliment."
"Liston could scowl as hard as any man in or out of the ring. And, of course, he invented the big stare." - Joe Louis
It's seems like an inside joke to Louis because no decent fighter would be impressed by how "mean" someone looked. Looking "mean" impresses guys like Burt Sugar. I'm guessing Joe Louis found humor in Liston's "mean mugging?"

 

Pretty much

 

Listons legacy is the saddest story i have ever heard. He was a FANTASTIC boxer and an even better man. He was a victim of unfortunate circumstances. I wish to one day spread his story to a mainstream audience because its unfair hes not considered one of the greatesst of all time. He is not the “person who lost to ali” that is unfair, he was old and upset. Liston came from nothing, and he died with nothing except a burning desire to be accepted which was never fulfilled. I pray he is in a better place now and knows how much people like me love and admire him.

words cant begin to describe my hatred for the putrid image which has come to encapsulate boxing.