the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

I totally hear you on that.

A fighter might get buckled and cop some but it would/should take a lot to cancel his own execution of a KD earlier in the round.

One way I look at it is that the fighter who hangs tough and holds his feet in the face of a heavy assault, should also be duly rewarded for same - for averting a 10-8 default score against him - or, in this case, averting the nullification of the points scored in his favour for the earlier knockdown.


He can’t do much more than that. A bit of a kick in the guts for a fighter to keep himself upright only for the judges to negate the points previously earned from a clean cut KD.

I’d go 10-8 for round 10 also - and while the judges don’t account for same - Frazier was merciful imo and could’ve seen Bugner off with a few more shots before he fell. So that’s my emotional slant on it.

 

I remember Charlie....

Interesting situation was when I think the WBA wanted Weir to be their champion because they wanted first digs in South Africa. A rumor is that the Davey Moore bout was supposed to be a fix. The same rumor has it that Moore-Mihara was also a fix, because at the time Japanese citizens could not travel to South Africa...

 

Certainly not impossible given the shenanigans that used to go on with that mob. The scoring heavily in favor for Moore over Weir gives pause tho.

 

Pugguy, always a head-scratcher when dealing with the old British scoring system. In this instance, it is 5 points to the winner of a round and 4 3/4 to the loser, so each quarter point is a round. The actual score was 59 1/4 to 58 1/2 in favor of Frazier. On my calculation and assuming Gibb gave Frazier the 10th by a 1/2 point margin (or 2 points on the 10 point must system), he must have had Frazier winning 5-3-4 on a rounds basis. This scoring eventually morphed into a 5 points to 4 1/2 to the winner of a round but it didn't make it that much more understandable until they went to the 10 point must. Anyways, here was my take on the fight.

Joe Frazier vs. Joe Bugner

This and the first fight with Ali is about the 2 best fights I've seen Joe Bugner involved in. Man, a little more fire in his tank and there is no question this guy could have gone further than he did. I scored this - according to the announcer Brent Musburger - on the English scoring of 5 points to the winner of the round and 4 3/4 to the loser.

Round 1: Bugner
Round 2: Bugner
Round 3: Frazier
Round 4: Even
Round 5: Frazier
Round 6: Even
Round 7: Frazier
Round 8: Frazier
Round 9: Frazier
Round 10: Frazier (scores a knockdown)
Round 11: Frazier
Round 12: Frazier

Total: 59 1/2 - 57 3/4 for Frazier

I scored the 10th round 5 - 4 1/2 for Frazier with the knockdown or 8-2-2 in rounds. But despite the onesidedness in rounds, Bugner really did put up a good fight.

 

Luisito Espinosa v Hurley Snead

After watching the abbreviated Espinosa v McKinney fight yesterday I wanted to see a bit more of the Filipino. Today I watched his fight with a good, proven talent in Hurley Snead. And it was a competitive fight but Snead was out-gunned no matter what he did. Snead was well-schooled in the game and was the aggressor throughout, but he just couldn't negotiate Espinosa's power - on my card anyway. I gave every round to Espinosa and I was really looking to give something to Snead but Espinosa's power just took everything on my card. Counting Espinosa dropping Snead in rounds 1, 2 and 8 I had a card of 80-69 through 8 rounds. The judges were more sympathetic to Snead with Espinosa leading by scores of 79-70 and 2 scores of 78-71. But that doesn't finish the tale. When Snead went down in the 8th, he had obviously been thumbed - unintentionally I'm sure as it was during an exchange and it wasn't like Espinosa needed an ace up his sleeve. Anyways, the doctor looked at him and allowed the round to continue, but one could see there was damage and Hurley was retired between rounds, which was a shame because he really hung in there throughout and never stopped trying. This bout was filmed with Filipino announcers and nothing has been written about it anywhere, so I would love to hear more on what happened if anyone knows.

 

I´m not 100 % sure but I believe he retired because of retina problems. I know his stablemate Jemal Hinton retired because of religious reasons, got a lot of press at the time. Hinton got a lot of press and tv exposure whilst Snead didn´t for some reason.

Hurley didn´t seem to have to big a following. I remember reading a few reports on him especially when he lost to Jose Sanabria who is one of my favourite fighters.

Then he scored some low key wins before Espinosa who seems to have been forgotten who was one hell of a fighter. As much as I like Pac-man Luisitio is my favourite Filipino fighter.

 

Just watched Jose Cuevas win the welterweight title at age 18 by second-round KO over Angel Espadas.

Angel used the first round as a feeling-out process as Pipino missed wildly a few times but Espadas didn’t counter much, just took his measure. Probably give the round to Cuevas on the basis of a brief flurry in the final seconds that included a couple good body shots.

In the second, Pipino landed a left hook that got Espadas’ attention and then a really solid right that rocked the WBA champ. Cuevas sensed his advantage and began winging big shots, finally getting home with the hook to put Angel down. He got up on unsteady legs and the barrage continued, with Pipino really crushing him with a left hook. Espedas got up a long the ropes and the ref gave him a bit of extra time (seemed to count all the way to 10 even though he was up by eight, and then asked for his gloves, talked to him and all but propped him up on the ropes to give him a chance to continue).

Didn’t matter. Cuevas came in with yet another decapitator of a left hook and that was it.

New champ. Pipino held it for four years before meeting Thomas Hearns, beating Espadas twice more along the way (all three wins over Angel by stoppage).

 

Cuevas' fall from grace was really something else after the Hearns fight.

 

Sometimes those big hitters sure do fall quite a distance after the big ko loss. Just never close to the version of fighter they used to be.

 

I watched these 2 bouts as I had never seen them before (I believe I felt the styles wouldn't gel and never made a point to see them). However, I did find them both entertaining. So here we go...

Kostya Tszyu v Sharmba Mitchell I (jr. welterweight title)

Round 1: 10-9 Tszyu
Round 2: 10-9 Mitchell
Round 3: 10-9 Tszyu
Round 4: 10-9 Mitchell (scored it Even but Tszyu was docked a point for pushing Mitchell to the canvas)
Round 5: 10-9 Tszyu
Round 6: 10-9 Tszyu
Round 7: 10-9 Tszyu
The bout is stopped before the bell rings for round 8, due to Mitchell claiming a knee injury

Total through 7 completed rounds: 68-65 Tszyu (actual scores: 68-65, 68-64 and a 66-66 with Tszyu leading)

Tszyu was really starting to bust Mitchell up and it appeared only a matter of time before those crippling body shots took their toll. Again, an entertaining fight.

Kostya Tszyu v Sharmba Mitchell II (Jr. welterweight title)

Round 1: 10-9 Mitchell
Round 2: 10-8 Tszyu (scores a knockdown)
Round 3: Tszyu drops Mitchell 3 times for an automatic stoppage

All Tszyu this time around and he took no prisoners.

 

Matthew Saad Muhammad vs. Marvin Johnson 1 07/26/1977 Philadelphia, PA for the vacant NABF Light Heavyweight Championship


I recently finished the Matthew Saad Muhammad book by Tres Dixon (very good read) and it made me want to watch as much of Saad Muhammad as I could before things went down south for him, which when they did, it went fast.


I think this is the first full fight of Saad Muhammad that I could find that is complete. If I am wrong, please let me know, as I would love to see some of his earlier fights that are supposed to be barnburners as well.


It looks like it’s a 5-point must system. I’m going to use the 10-point must system as it’s what I’m used to and I don’t think it affects how the fight victor would be decided.


12 Rounds


Round 1 - 10-9 Johnson (close) I don’t like to give even rounds, but this round was a coin-flip. To not break my rule, I’ll give it to Johnson because of landing a solid body shot or two. Between rounds, the announcers say that Matthew Saad Muhammad (Going by Matthew Franklin, at the time) had a hard time with a fighter named Joe Maye, who they called a “hard-hitter”. Maye ended his career with a 3-45 record with 1 KO.


Round 2 -10-9 Johnson Between watching round 1 a few days ago and today I managed to hurt my wrist. I like being more detailed when judging but it’s not going to be possible. Probably just going to score the rounds but I already know this fight deserves more justice.


Round 3 - 10-9 Johnson. Non-stop back-and-forth action. Pretty close round. When MSM gets hit his head always snaps back, which is hard to ignore while judging.


Round 4 - 10-9 Saad Muhammad. A late rally may have stolen the round for MSM but another close one.


Round 5 - 10-9 Johnson I feel pretty clearly


Round 6 - 10-9 Johnson. Pretty big last 30 seconds to separate the two.


Round 7 - 10-9 Johnson


Round 8 - 10-9 Saad Muhammad, close. I think I see Johnson tiring a bit, which makes perfect sense for the pace he has kept most of this fight. MSM closed the round strong.


Round 9 - 10-9 Saad Muhammad. Big close to the round for MSM. Johnson isn’t throwing nearly as much, but when he does he usually lands in exploding fashion. Good round, MSM coming on.

Round 10 - 10-9 Johnson. Amazingly, Johnson has probably landed 75 plus heavy blows to MSM’s head and I don’t think MSM has wobbled once. Another close round.


Round 11 - 10-9 Saad Muhammad. The legs are going for Johnson, as many shots Matthew Saad lands make Johnson look like his legs are giving out. The ref thought he heard the round because the pro-MSM Philly crowd was losing their minds, costing MSM maybe about 10 more seconds to continue to hurt Johnson.


Round 12 - Matthew Saad Muhammad wins by TKO. When Johnson went, he went fast. He was hurt with the first punch of the round and his whole body shut down until he was knocked down/felled from exhaustion about a minute into the round.


My card had Johnson up seven rounds to four going into the final round. Amazingly, Saad Muhammad was able to pull this out. Some might even say, a miracle.

 

Agree the book is a great read

 

Mike, we're identical other than the 8th, which i scored even. This is what I wrote:

Matt Franklin v Marvin Johnson I (vacant NABF light heavyweight title - Philly's 5-point must system in effect)

Round 1: 5-4 Johnson
Round 2: 5-4 Johnson
Round 3: 5-4 Johnson
Round 4: 5-4 Franklin
Round 5: 5-4 Johnson
Round 6: 5-4 Johnson
Round 7: 5-4 Johnson
Round 8: 5-5 Even
Round 9: 5-4 Franklin
Round 10: 5-4 Johnson
Round 11: 5-4 Franklin
Round 12: Franklin drops and stops Johnson

Total through 11 completed rounds: 52-48 Johnson (actual scores: 53-49 Johnson, 51-48 Franklin and a 51-51 Even score - the bout was dead even going into the 12th)

To begin, What a fight! Like two Rock 'em - Sock 'em robots going at it. I think I woke up the house this morning with my cries of "Ohhhh!" Fantastic fight!

Clearly the referee and myself were more impressed by Johnson's haymakers than the other two judges. But a good case can be made for Franklin's (he was not yet Saad Muhammad) straight punching through the middle.

One other thing. I had to replay the first 30 seconds of the first round as I was listening to the 2 commentators discussing how the NABF title became vacant and was so stunned I had to start it over. Oh, man talk about two disorganized commentators. They hemmed and hawed and came up with the story that because John Conteh wouldn't fight Miguel Cuello (huh?) that Victor Galindez (from Argentina) gave up the NABF title when he won the WBA title (WTF!). Conteh and Galindez had been world champs since '74 and this was taking place in '77 and did they ask themselves how in the world that the NABF title had anything to do with two foreign born fighters based in their home countries? Do your homework, guys, before the cameras are rolling.

 

John 'The Heat' Verderosa v Kel Robin (NJ rounds scoring)

Round 1: Robin
Round 2: Even
Round 3: Robin
Round 4: Robin
Round 5: Robin
Round 6: Even
Round 7: Robin
Round 8: Robin
Round 9: Robin stops Verderosa

Total through 8 completed rounds: 6-0-2 Robin (actual scores not known)

Man, I remember when this took place. I had never heard of Robin before this fight and if I had money then, I would have been financially backing Robin, I thought so much of him after this bout. The jab and combos he was firing and landing on Verderosa were smoking. I could only give Verderosa a share of two rounds before Robin nailed 'The Heat' in the 9th. Just a brilliant performance from an unknown. BTW, good thing I didn't have any money back then. I'd have lost it all as Robin only went as far as continental titles.

 

In all probability, no one — not even the NABF — knew haha.

I did a quick research because you intrigued me and Wikipedia (suspect, I know) has lineage (probably incomplete) of NABF championships in all weight classes.

What we do know is Lonnie Bennett won the light heavyweight NABF bauble in May 1976 when he beat Billy Douglas and was no longer champ after November of that year.

He had only one fight between Douglas and Yaqui Lopez about a year later, and that was at 176 vs. an 11-8-1 guy. Possibly had been given an ultimatum to defend the belt and just didn’t. At least that’s my guess.

The NABF belts in those days carried some heft — I mean Ali was an NABF champ and so was Ray Leonard for a brief spell — and they obviously saw MSM-Johnson as a worthy fight to crown a champ and end the vacancy.

Not sure that helps but I’m pretty sure Conteh and Victor had nothing to do with it, haha.