How good was Muhammed Ali (H2H

I prefer the peak Muhammad Ali from 1964-1967, the Ali from 1970 and beyond was involved in too many dramatic bouts, like watching a soap opera. The peak Ali had speed, stamina, great footwork, timing and catlike reflexes. The Ali from 1964-1967 could dance non stop unlike the Ali from 1970 and beyond that was vulnerable, lacked stamina and looked like the Sta Puff man from Ghostbusters, the peak Ali was fit.

 

I don't see anybody beating the Ali who fought Terrell and Williams. He moved like a freakin lightweight, had absurdly fast hands, seemed to be a fairly hard hitter, and could break the laws of physics by doing things like throwing punishing power shots while backing up.

Have you watched those two fights recently? He's far more than a guy who dances around potshotting with jabs. He was always far more than that.

 

Holmes said that Ali was the first fighter who could fight backing up.

 

There's beautiful footage of Ali doing exactly this in his fight with Williams. It's crazy.

 

That's just not the case. Robinson against LaMotta in 1951 is to this day arguably the greatest backfoot performance ever, and many fighters before that can be seen fighting on the backfoot.

 

Good but I think overrated head to head plenty of boxers would give him trouble he wasn't unbeatable as Norton and Frazier proved.

 

Yea, But Muhammad Ali was not in his peak from 1964-1967 when he fought both Ken Norton and Joe Frazier. Ali fought Norton for the first time on March 31 1973 and lost to Frazier after having two pro bouts in 43 months due to his draft problems in 1967. Ali at peak form would not have used Rope A Dope or lay on the ropes, he would have danced non stop for 15 rounds.

 

They did not fight him at his best.

And Ali screwed himself with Frazier. Had he not endlessly pissed Frazier off so bad during the build-up to that fight, he might have been able to pull off a win. Instead he led Frazier to have a white hot rage-fueled career best performance. Every single thing Frazier did in camp for that fight was probably done while imagining punishing Ali for whatever latest thing he said was. Every step during roadwork an imagined left hook to the jaw, a right to the body. Every punch to a heavy bag a broken rib. Etc. It's just not smart to give an opponent that kind of motivation.

 

I agree 100%, Ali was way past his better days when he fought those two coming from someone who saw Muhammad Ali fight as champion from 1964-1967.

 

I think him and Lennox if put against every heavyweight in history come out with the least losses. And I think Ali beats Lennox so I have him at 1.

 

Ali definitely takes the numero uno spot.

 

Having watched more than Ali's highlight reels, I'll say he wasn't that great technically, in the same way someone like Mayweather is, nor was he ever that hard to hit, just because he looks awesome in spurts of fantastical defense. However, as a fighter, he is inhumanly tough and has an iron will and shocking durability, not unhurtable, but virtually unstoppable. He's the most likely to be a foil for the biggest punchers, and he is the most likely to bluff his way past someone he doesn't match up well with on the cards at the end of the night. He makes opponents dejected, and he is every bit as capable of scoring unlikely KO's as men who punch much harder, and he has that in his pocket too. He's H2H GOAT, and greatness GOAT at heavyweight, and arguably p4p top ten. He may never have looked more like fake highlight reel Ali through a whole match than with Williams, but he had to grit out matches against George Chuvalo, including when he was mint condition Ali. And he'd have to keep doing it when he either didn't train well, didn't feel well, had all manner of problems with his body, or personal dramas and controversies, and still pulled things off, time and again.

 

That's the excuse everyone uses but I think it's junk he looked just as good in the second Frazier fight and Norton fight as his prime people mythologies his prime instead of admitting he was good but a flawed fighter and those flaws came out when he fought better opponents and didn't train properly

 

I completely agree. Also, to split it up a bit more, the Ali from mid-1965 through the Zora Folley fight would have beaten any other version of Ali. He had gained more strength and more experience against top guys.