How good was rocky marciano?

I like the type of cutting edge, smart comedy that Charlie Callas used to do on Carson, in the eighties.

 

This is going to sound backward to you, although it's been my very consistent line here since I began posting. He was top five great as far as greatness, but I can think of maybe 15 people who would clobber him head to head.

 

Hi Buddy.
I also have him as top 5 via greatness, but again quite a few of the latter day giants would prob beat him , thinking Lewis, Holmes, Foreman, and maybe even lesser lights , due to Marcianos small stature, as I have said in fairly recent posts, its seems to be getting a longer more introspective project to pinpoint where one puts any fighter on the HW rating list, again and again, the H2H stroke resume, comes into play, and Marciano seems to be in the eye of the storm when all the above are discussed, his victims were, old men, past their prime, etc, it seemed relatively easy to sit down and formulate a top ten, when I was young, now there are so many variables, or so it seems, so in conclusion, was Rocky so great if " 15 " people could beat him? this isn't a pop at you, or your view, which make sense, it's more my confusion when asked to task my top ten HWs , anyway I have taken enough of your time, keep up your fine post.
stay safe PRW94, chat soon.

 

I come at it this way. What he actually did, in his actual time and place, against the people who actually were placed in front of his fists, can’t be ignored and must be acknowledged. Nobody else ever did that in any other time or place. But note what I said about “his time and place.”

 

Watching Rocky's fights on film is never a pleasurable experience for me. I am always reminded of seeing an ugly fistfight between two of my schoolmates and feeling shocked and sick to my stomach at the blood and violence. It's hard for me to understand myself and why I love boxing when I so despise violence. Well, Rocky's fights look less to me like the boxing I love and more like the violence I loathe. When I watch Marciano I see none of the artistry and grace I admire about a great athletic performance. I just see the cruelty of the sport. I guess that's why I don't like Rocky. That, and the fact that guys who fought him didn't merely get defeated. They got hurt. They were seldom any good for the remainders of their careers -- Rex Layne for one and especially Ezzard Charles, a warrior both noble and elegant whose skills suffered a shocking decline after Rocky Marciano destroyed him. That's what I don't want to see when I watch boxing.

I never believed the claims from Marciano's camp that he cried after knocking out Joe Louis. That was just to humanize him because America loved Louis and they didn't want Rocky to be seen as a villain.

 

I tend to defend Marciano's opposition more than most, but this is an entirely fair statement to make. I wouldn't completely rule him out against more modern greats, but it's tough to favor him against most modern greats given that he'd be more than likely campaigning as a LH and cruiserweight in the current era.

 

The dirty little secret is that there are boxing fans who gravitate to and get off on exactly what you describe, who think it’s the essence of the sport.

 

I guess it depends what you like.

We couldn't have asked much more of him in the ring, for the period that he was active.

However if you are one of those boxing fans who is impressed by physical stats, then he is not your cup of tea, and neither is his era.

 

Reminds me of an article about Leonard -Duran lll in Sports Illustrated which is there for the Googling. When Leonard fought his fight there wasn't much Duran could do but when he decided to brawl he got a bloody lip and eyebrow for his efforts. The author wrote some people rather watch Van Gough cut off his ear than paint Sunflowers.

 

I used to, but then I started thinking...
Did Charlie Callas seem cutting edge and smart because of the crack epidemic? Or was the crack epidemic a reaction to the smart, cutting edge comedy of Charlie Callas?

 

Comment would still have been gold if you ended it after the first sentence.

 

Marciano was good enough to beat old men, tomato cans and mafia controlled guys. Marciano was good enough to get beat by Roland LaStarza and get a gift win. Marciano was good enough to get beat form pillar to post by 170 pound Ted Lowry and almost get stopped.

But Marciano wasn't a heavyweight, never beat any legit modern sized heavyweights. So the moment you see somebody say Marciano was a ATG heavyweight you can dismiss and ignore anything they say or type.

It is kind of like MIke Tyson fans telling you the only reason Mike Tyson lost to Buster Douglas or Evander Holyfield was because Tyson was old . Sure both Holyfield and Douglas were 7 years older than Tyson. When you see somebody say this you can ignore and dismisss them as well.

But Mike Tyson would still knock out Marciano in 1 round since Tyson was actually a modern sized heavyweight in terms of weight and fought modern sized heavyweights.

 

Let's hear what the greats and his contemporaries have to say...

JOE LOUIS
"It hurt to bump into him....He hits harder than Max Schmeling...this kid is tough enough to beat anyone."

"The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."

"He's a good fighter. Better than most people realize. He's strong and young and hard to hit."

"Rocky was a very deceiving guy. He was not easy to hit."


MUHAMMED ALI

“I could have beaten all of those guys, except for maybe Marciano.”


“When I was 14 years old and listening to the radio and I heard the announcer, ‘.and still champion of the whole world, Rocky Marciano..’ I knew I wanted to be champion someday. He was a big influence in the start of my career.”


"Ooo he hit hard. He hit you so hard it'd jar your kin folks in Africa...it'd been rough...I truly think on my best day and his best day I would have beaten him...I think he was better than Joe Frazier, I truly think he was better than Joe Frazier and you know what Joe Frazier did to me...I think it would be even, he may have won. It's just hard...In his heyday, he may have won. It's up to the imagination.


(When asked who would have given him the most trouble)

"Rocky Marciano...He would be the most trouble I think...Rocky Marciano."


ACHIE MOORE

(When asked which punch hurt him most)
"Man they all hurt."

"After a fight with Marciano, it felt like you had been beat all over the upper body with a black jack or hit with rocks."


"He could hurt you sure, but it was the quantity of his punches. He just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."


JERSEY JOE WALCOTT
"Joe could take you out with combinations...Marciano was a one-punch artist. He threw every punch like you throw a baseball, as hard as he could. I have to say, with all respect to Joe, Marciano hit harder."

“I liked that title. I didn’t want to lose it to anybody, but if I had to lose it, I’m glad I lost it to you. You’re a good fighter and gonna be a great champ.”


EZZARD CHARLES:
"Rocky numbs you all over. Wherever he hits you, he hurts you; on the arms, the shoulders, the neck and the head."


JACK DEMPSEY
"What everyone forgets is that Marciano can punch harder with a right hand than any modern-day heavyweight. In his first fight with Walcott, Rocky needed only one blow to win the title. The power in his right scrambled Jersey Joe's brains at Chicago."

"I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over. That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."


GEORGE FOREMAN

I rank “Joe Louis 1, Marciano 2” Marciano retired undefeated. No other heavies has ever done it;


JOE FRAZIER

“Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Rocky Marciano is second only to Louis. Where do I rate Ali? Somewhere below me. I beat him, and if I could beat him, no doubt Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano could have beaten him.”



FLOYD PATTERSON
"He was the most determined heavyweight I have ever seen in my life. That man got in the ring and there was no way he was going to lose... Determination is based in the mind. How far can you go? What is your limit? With Marciano there was no limit."


ROLAND LASTARZA
"In defense. It was harder to get at him ... Rocky fools you. He doesn't take as much punishment as it seems. He looks easy to hit inside but he isn't."

"I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."


CHARILE GOLDMAN

"He ain't as easy to hit as they say. Rocky rolls under punches and he weaves under punches ... He protects his belly by blocking with his elbows.


ANEGELO DUNDEE

"Rocky was a very deceiving guy. He was not easy to hit."


KNEENE SIMMONS

"He fools you. When you look at him from outside the ring he seems easy to hit ... But if you're in the ring with him you find this isn't the case ... His head is bobbing and he's crouched low, so low in fact that you can't get a clear shot at him."


"Marciano is a good puncher and he's hard to hit. He has a funny style."


HARRY "KID" MATHEWS
"He was a great puncher, one of the best of all-time. He just threw one punch after another, and all of them were hard."


PHIL MUSCATO
"Dan, I can still feel his punches. He kept punching me in the upper arms until I could no longer hold them up to defend or throw punches".


BERNIE REYNOLDS
"He had amazing strength. Any time Marciano hit you, he could hurt you. He didn't do much flicking; every punch was a knockout punch."


DOC KEARNS
"Marciano hits harder than Jack Dempsey did"


FERDIE PACHECO
"He was chastised by the press every time he fought as being a Neanderthal, no concept of boxing, who was going to get beat as soon as he got in with someone who could box, who was gonna make him look silly…It took a long time for the boxing scribes to realize they were in the presence of sheer power."

 

Marciano was great. All you can do is fight the best of your era - he did that with 0 omissions and 0 losses.
If you base your rankings on accomplishments he has to rate quite highly.
H2H is another story as it’s hard to see a guy who was 188lbs - a heavyweight in his day - truly compete with someone like Wlad Klitschko and so forth.
H2H is tricky because it’s all conjecture usually tainted by personal bias and favoritism.
Marciano fought the best available and won in fights that tested his mettle. Yeah some guys were old and they weren’t the biggest but that’s not his fault.