Has Usky just demolished the myth of the modern superheavyweight?

1. This entire time I've only ever been referring to the best fighters of all vs the best SHW fighters of all time. I never said that an ATG fighter couldn't beat the WORST super heavyweights of all time lmao, I know that's already happened, I'M the one that brought up Langford and Tate

That's obviously not what I've referring to, I didn't think I had to point that out explicitly.

Dempsey, Langford and Lewis overcame 50lbs to 60lbs weight disadvantages to defeat the worst SHW's of all time, who consequently never seem to come up in H2H discussions because they're so unnoteworthy, except for Carnera who's brought up as a meme, very cool. Langford beats Fury then?

2. Is English not your first language, or a language you speak frequently? I'm not asking sarcastically. I was beefing someone the other day for not understanding what I was saying but as it turns out they were just Italian

I ask because you're talking about Canelo bulking up... why? Canelo isn't bulking up anywhere... I'm saying Canelo as he is RIGHT NOW is as small compared to Klitschko as a 180lber is compared to a 260lber. Different example;

Do you think prime SRR, Marvin Hagler, Bernard Hopkins, Carlos Monzon, or GGG, WHILST WEIGHING 170LBS, could beat Lennox Lewis or the Klitschko's?

 

I don't doubt there's been a slow-down in Usyk somewhere - just nothing so obvious as Fury's regression, in my opinion.

As I've intimated in previous posts, the best Fury, during his comeback, was clearly seen in Wilder II - That's over 4 years ago - almost as long as Usyk has been competing in the division.

I'd also suggest that referring to Fury's powers of recovery as "fantastic" is going just a bit too far. In 2018, Fury was nailed to the canvas by Wilder, but still got up and proceeded to effectively win the rest of the round.

Flash forward five to six years against Usyk, and he's he getting caught with a much lesser punch and reacting like a man who's been mainlining high doses of diazepam. He had a minute in the corner and was still not right when he came out for the 10th.

To my mind, that doesn't indicate that he had anywhere near his former capacity for shipping leather and moving past big shots. It's a bad sign, actually - and is more an indication of a boxer who's bordering on being shot.

 

Lets break down that list. Fury? The guy that arguably lost to an 0-0 mma fighter? Thats the guy Jack Dempsey can't beat? Joshua? The same guy that got destroyed by an overweight 5'11 and a half (according to celebeights) Andy Ruiz? If Andy Ruiz ever actually got in shape he'd weigh 187 just like Dempsey. Maybe less. If Fury lost that pack of blubber he's carrying around his waist he'd weigh 245 like Willard. Unless you think being as fat Ruiz and as fat as Fury is a great example of modern day athletics. I don't. Lets talk about how everybody on your list of super heavyweights except Vitali has a glass jaw. Why is that trait so damn common in super heavyweights by the way? You don't think a 187 Jack Dempsey that brutalized a 245 Jess Willard couldn't crack those glass chins? Thats impossible to you? I won't argue you down about who wins those fights right now, but to say its impossible? You're just being obtuse.

Your list of middleweights are a bunch of guys competing in their natural weight class. Canelo is a natural 154 pounder that lifted weights. You can't compare him to a Marciano who has a bone density and frame that Canelo will never have. Just because Canelo lifted some weights and put on some costume muscles doesn't mean he's a bigger guy. Middleweights have only rarely went up to heavyweight. But light heavyweights? We've seen that a lot. Michael Spinks and Evander Holyfield come to mind. Guess what? They were perfectly capable of beating up big men. There goes your fancy mathematical theory down the drain.

 

To me Usyk's slippage since Joshua 1 in 2021 is clearer. I think Fury gets overrated in Wilder 2. He fought a smart, gutsy fight against someone with HUGE limitations which he exploited, but thing is that Fury looked pretty **** from a technical standpoint.

Lettings hands go from the hips with his chin flying in the air. Wilder was so pathetically off balance that he couldn't do anything about it, but Usyk called him on it (when he caught in rd 9 a very good example). And Fury knows about those limitations himself and tried to duck Usyk as hard as anyone has ever tried to duck anyone since Dempsey-Willis for that very reason.

You know fully well of course that Usyk didn't just catch him with one punch. He staggered him with one but then kept pouring on, so there was a lot more for Fury to recover from when he finally got some respite.

And the Wilder recovery wasn't just fantastic, it was insane.

Btw, are you the absolute egg that thought Lemieux was better than Kalambay or am I mistaking you for someone else? If not our conversation ends here. Because then you also have had some other infinitely bad takes and will never back down and is someone I just forgot to put on Ignore.

 

"Lets break down that list. Fury? The guy that arguably lost to an 0-0 mma fighter? Thats the guy Jack Dempsey can't beat?"

The absolute worst version of Tyson Fury to ever step foot into a ring lost to an extremely muscular and lean 6'4 270lbs man that had the size to neutralised Fury's reach and strength advantages, his main advantages, therefore Jack Dempsey could beat the best version of Tyson Fury whilst having none of these advantages? Why do you insist on making such stupid leaps in logic?

"Joshua? The same guy that got destroyed by an overweight 5'11 and a half Andy Ruiz? If Andy Ruiz ever actually got in shape he'd weigh 187 just like Dempsey. Maybe less. "

Andy Ruiz's frame is MUCH larger than Dempsey's. If he had as much fat as Dempsey he'd probably be around 220. Also, who gives a ****? Another terrible leap in logic where you've again said "If this 270lbs man could do it, why couldn't this 190lbs do it" and think you've just hit a slam dunk

"Lets talk about how everybody on your list of super heavyweights except Vitali has a glass jaw. Why is that trait so damn common in super heavyweights by the way?"

The fact you even need to ask this basic science question is concerning. The force that human beings can produce increases at a faster rate than the force that human beings can withstand. That's why across ALL combat sport's the heavyweight division has more knockouts than the others below it. They're not all just glass chinned, they're just victims of physics.

"But light heavyweights? We've seen that a lot. Michael Spinks and Evander Holyfield come to mind. Guess what? They were perfectly capable of beating up big men. There goes your fancy mathematical theory down the drain".

EVANDER HOLYFIELD?

You're using an 190lbs man that had to take steroids to become a ripped 220lbs man as an example of an 190lbs man that could beat 260lbs men ?

Also, percentage increase isn't a fancy mathematical theory it's... it's percentage increase. You're taught it as a child bro lol come on now.

Finally, do you not find it a strange coincidence that you're incapable of citing a single example in the past near 100 god damn years, of a world class 180lbs man beating beating a world class 260lbs man, and have had to use two 260lbs men defeating other 260lbs, or roided up 220lbs man not defeating an elite super heavyweight to make your points? If that isn't a sign to give up idk what is.

 

This is a horrendous reply and exactly why I didn't want to open this can of worms with you. You are the worst kind of boxing fan. You just gave glowing praise to a 0-2 mma fighter to cover Fury's ass. You expect me to believe anything you say after that? You're horrific.

 

None of this really speaks to their respective regression, save that you think Usyk's was clearer and I've already disagreed with that for quite obvious reasons. One of these reasons being that, over the past three years, Usyk's performances have stayed at a high-level whereas Fury's have clearly dropped over the same period - Whyte (which wasn't bad, but not great) Chisora (which was comparatively poor), leading to what can only be considered a desolate low-point against Ngannou.

I don't think Fury intended any of this to pan out the way it did over the course of the timeline it did, by the way. I think boxing politics got in the way of securing the big fights in a timely manner and time has a way of creeping up on you.

Referring to the Fury of Wilder II as 'overrated' is a pretty spontaneous shout from you and not one I'm going to take too seriously, to be honest. Fury was clearly fitter, faster, stronger and more coherent in a committed fight strategy. Something we've not really seen from him since.

Sure, there were a number of shots leading up to the big left that triggered Fury's bag of spaghetti impression, but these were well spaced apart. It was that left hook with 30 seconds to go that started him down ***** street and it wasn't a huge shot, compared to we've seen him take before, IMO.

But, whichever way one wants to view that segment of the fight, this wasn't Wilder-level leather Fury was shipping and his recovery took significantly longer, which is the point here.

 

I actively dislike Tyson Fury. What you consider "glowing praise" I call context, something which clearly terrifies you.

I hate when I actually put in the effort to debunk something stupid only for the stupid to not put in the same effort in return. Not doing that again.

 

Never reply to me again

 

Oh just shut up and put me on ignore you prima donna

 

As I said MM, all respect for your opinion Champ and there are definitely a number of areas that are opinion based - areas that I wouldn’t try to pass off as concrete facts, they’re just my own perspective on the fight.

Tbh, I don’t think Fury made any significant mistakes that had any major affect on the outcome. He fought as best he could and as well as he could in the face of Usyk’s own strategy and adaptions.

Overall, I would say it was great fight and the like of which we haven’t seen for quite some time. Finally.

 

Apologies MM, somehow I missed your more detailed address - I only read the last paragraph. Too early in the morning for me, lol.

Usyk is definitely not quite as fast, mobile or indefatigable as he once was.

I pointed to the Joshua rematch, for one, to highlight this. Usyk losing a step in those regards could be arguably more detrimental to any deteriorations perceived in Fury.

Usyk did begin to fatigue in the middle rounds of his own volition, but of course he got a second wind. In several ways, Usyk has always had to work harder than his larger opposition anyway.

To whatever degree anyone might view Usyk’s deteriorations - they were not addressed in balance - as if, at age 37, he is some magical, static quantity with concessions only being made for Fury.

Many said that they believed that Fury’s performance vs Ngannou was due to lack of focus/conditioning. As I said, for many, the word was “If it’s a fit and focused Fury, look out!”

I don’t think that was the whole story/explanation for the Ngannou fight at any rate - Francis simply brought some unique attributes to the table in terms of strength and power - significant negatives - Fury didn’t get to rest nor tire his opponent via mauling/leaning - a tactic he usually enjoys.

I’ve been going through the RBR to read comments I missed - the majority word was that people thought it was the best they’d seen Fury perform in a long time.

Several also lauded Fury for his ability to recuperate following the 9th round to see himself to the end.

I didn’t see any comments noting that Fury’s punch resistance had suddenly deserted him - I agree, that was not the takeaway for me also - but he was getting hit hard and often enough.

Fury was shaken as early as round 1 - toward the end of the round, a hard left - might’ve even been on the nose - the first of several that Usyk landed on that particular target.

Usyk’s opening rounds, power shots and propensity to just to unload were an intelligent warn off to Fury.

Several descriptions in the RBR used the term “stunned” - yes, Fury was hurt early and on a number of occasions after that round, before the 9th.

Oh, I know Seamus said that he bet on Usyk - he also scored the first round to Fury I believe - - and after two viewings - a scoring that was in defiance of all 3 judges and most observers otherwise. So I won’t “take” any of it.

I think it’s pretty obvious that it wasn’t Fury’s fight to lose. Fury certainly didn’t think so - and that includes his ducking of the bout for some 2-3 years.

The fact was that Usyk won the fight in highly proactive fashion. Again, if one thought it was Fury’s fight to lose - then, after the fact of losing, one will look for reasons to put blame on Fury - including a number of reasons that don’t hold water.

Fury has been put down by others, not just Wilder and Ngannou. You perceived that Fury recuperated well even after the Ngannou KD - yet, his punch resistance suddenly left him between that, his last fight, and this fight?

Usyk was hitting Fury hard and often, and if he didn’t get notably shook on some occasions - believe me, it was all still adding up anyway. There were times when Fury smiled after getting hit flush. A facade. The smile left as quickly as it came.

If attempts to account for Fury are going to be made to such an elaborate degree, of course it’s apt to account for Usyk in kind.

I’ve read people suggest that round 9 did Fury in - the old “game changer” (term also used by the “even handed” Brit commentary, as it so happened) and sure, that’s an observation that might warrant - “yeah, well duh! Round 9 certainly didn’t do him any favours…and the point is?” Dems de breaks?

But, the fact was, with a second wind, Usyk was somewhat back to himself and already changing the game from and including round 7.

We’re breaking down a fight, so I won’t dismiss any claims re Fury with “Well, that’s just how it goes”. The treatment should be even handed.

As to the expense of energy i mentioned, some in the RBR suggested that Usyk “erred” not going harder for the kill after round 9.

If I was disingenuous, I could say a big mistake on Usyk’s part - so errs are part of the game, Usyk made mistakes, but no, he was obviously gassed a bit after his efforts in round 9.

Just as Fury wasn’t so much making bad elections - the guy in front of him had a lot to do with how Fury fought and was allowed to fight.

Usyk expended the energy because the KO/TKO was imminent. He poured it on and his investment was right on the money.

No question in my mind, the ref saved Fury from what should’ve been a TKO in Rd 9. Look closely at the round - the ref also got between Usyk and Fury twice before actually deeming a KD.

Each time it appeared that the ref might enforce a standing 8 - but he didn’t , instead, he impeded Usyk - and glaringly so in the second instance - actually partially blocking Usyk’ path to the wilting Fury.

So much so, the ref shoulder bumped Usyk who then had to push the ref away with his glove to clear the way and continue the assault.

And then, even after the ruled KD, there was the ref holding Fury’s arm, walking/assisting him part way toward his corner…he didn’t know where he was….

Well, the 23 seconds allowed on 2 occasions are not conspiracy theories - they’re fact - and if we’re talking Fury’ recuperative powers - then the excessive time allowed for Fury to recover per the examples cited, is, of course, very much relevant to the discussion.

So, this wasn’t a very close fight imo and it should’ve actually been stopped in round 9. A very solid domination for Usyk, however you slice it (or how I slice it).

We disagree on quite a few points re this fight but that’s fine of course - it’s the beauty of and spark for discussion.

Apologies if any of my wording/expressions comes across as harsh - not at all intended - just being more finite to get my points across.

 

Yes, allowable or acceptable to a degree - but not as an oft used, express tactic.

I can reach back to Ali-Frazier II and say that it was appalling - both in terms of intent and allowance - how much Ali was permitted to hold Frazier - and their fights either side of fight II prove what a difference it makes when such express tactics aren’t in play.

 

Cheers Mac.