The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

Depends on the criteria. Head to head, I'll take Marciano. Legacy-wise, Jack Dempsey was Babe Ruth.

They are both greats, both with resumes that ask for more... Still, they're way up there in the history of the division.

 

"smaller size of his opponents"

This depends if you go by what a man did in the world he was living in, in other words an historical judgement. Or some sort of head to head evaluation giving props to bigger men from later eras.

I am only into the first, an historical judgment. I see no point in putting a man down who could beat anyone who was walking the Earth in his day on the basis of how men coming from very different worlds would do decades later.

 

The world Rocky was living in had multiple large fighters such as Carnera, Simon, the Baer brothers, Bearcat Wright, Fred Fulton, Obie Walker, etc.

The fact men of such size existed in that time period, yet they are strangely missing from Rocky's resume tells me Al Weil and Goldman probably weren't too interested in matching him with them. In terms of h2h discussions, Rocky's chances against larger men are open to question due to these facts. That's all I'm saying. It isn't me saying Rocky could've done more or that he was ducking people, he made the most of a pretty underwhelming era and did all he could.

 

Marciano ruined Lastarza,imo he was never the same fighter after his title shot,pre Marciano he beats Cockell pretty easily.
After Marciano Lastarza lost his next 3 fights had a further 6 lost 2 of them won the other 4 over nobodies
and retired .Yes Washed up!
Cockell beat a severely diminished Lastarza and a never was in Mathews, whose credentials at heavyweight are,
beating a washed up Charles who had lost 6 of his last 10 fights. A past it Beshore who hadn't been ranked for 3 years and had won 4 of his last 7 fights.
And Layne, Layne had been hammered by Marciano ,hammered by Charles and beat up and floored 3 times by a nobody.

How was Mathews the best all round fighter in1951? The champion of his division was Joey Maxim.Jack Hurley Mathews manager turned down a title shot against him,so he obviously did not agree with Ring Staff did he? Ranked among the lhv's in51 was Archie Moore ,was Mathews ever a better all round fighter than him?
Also ranked when Mathews was were;
Johnson
Buccerroni
Pompey
Turpin
Lamotta
Slade
Barone
Satterfield
How come Harry didn't fight any of them?


No doubt you will disagree with me but then, when don't you?

 

Okay. I guess "living in" can be interpreted as his entire life, but I understood it as referring only to the years he was a top boxer.

"Carnera, Simon, the Baer brothers, Bearcat Wright, Fred Fulton, Obie Walker, etc"

What these share in common is not active any time near when Marciano was fighting. Carnera, Simon, the Baer brothers, and Obie Walker were from the 1930's. Fulton the WW! era. Wright the twenties.

Bearcat Wright--the famous boxer Bearcat Wright was active mainly in the 1920's. His son, who went by Bearcat Jr. was active to a degree in the Marciano era. He had 8 pro fights, never going beyond six rounds. He retired after 8 preliminary fights and became a successful pro wrestler. Old Bearcat was 6' 1" not at all beyond the size of actual Marciano opponents.

It is strange for the 5' 9" Obie Walker to be on this list.

As for the list, what exactly do mainly second-tier guys who were big but mediocre (with the exception of Max Baer) prove? Is your argument these old timers would be a bigger threat than Walcott or Moore?

 

Obie Walker and Bearcat were like 230-240 lbs. Size isn't just about how tall you are.

No I'm not saying these fighter were more skilled than Walcott and Moore. My point was:

1-There were multiple big men during and even before Rocky's era. He just didn't fight that many for whatever reason. I was addressing your initial claim that Rocky can only fight whose available, which is true, and he did basically clear out his division. But Weil and Goldman didn't seem interested in matching him with the big sluggers as he was climbing up the ranks.

2-Styles make fights. Just because Rocky can beat small technical fighters such as Charles or Walcott doesn't automatically mean he could beat large sluggers even if Charles and Walcott were more skilled. It's a mystery how Rocky's style would clash against a big man weighing 230+ lbs. Had he fought someone like an Obie Walker or a Buddie Baer it would answer some questions for h2h discussions.

 

Both Baer and Walker retired before Marciano turned pro.You need to provide big guys that were contemporary with Rocky,guys like Valdes and Baker, your point is taken,I've made it many times myself, but there really wasn't anyone else around of any quality who was contemporary with Rocky.You can only fight who is around.

 

Most of these guys where retire or dead during Rocky's heyday.

 

"There were multiple big men"-----

"even before Rocky's era"

????????? Hard to see the point about big men who were not active in Rocky's era

"during"

This is at least relevant. In fact Marciano fought 5 men who were over 210 lbs. and KO'd all of them. One of them, Louis, was the best heavyweight of the 1930's and 1940's.

"big sluggers"

By your definition, who would this have been? The best big man Marciano didn't fight (at about 210), Bob Baker was not much of a puncher at all. Certainly not in the same class as Satterfield. Not just p4p, but absolutely.

No big man of 230 lbs. or above would have proven anything at all because in that era men the big men just weren't that good.

"Just because Rocky can beat small technical fighters doesn't automatically mean he could beat large sluggers even if Charles and Walcott were more skilled."

A lack of evidence is not evidence of anything. All we really know here is that Marciano KO'd all the big guys (over 210) he fought and one of them was Joe Louis. The other thing we know historically if that it is the fast, clever guys that have turned out to be the nemesis more often than not. Dempsey handled the big guys, but had trouble with Tunney and to an extent Gibbons. Louis blew all the big fellows away but had more problems with Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, Charles, and Marciano, all of whom were under 200 lbs.

 

A lack of evidence is simply that: a lack of evidence. If a fighter never fought south paws, then it's a mystery how they'd look fighting a southpaw. Similarly, since Rocky didn't face any quality big men itst a mystery how he'd do against them.

Joe Louis was 137 years old and all he had was his jab. The Louis who fought Rocky wasn't the same Louis who dominated the division with 25 title defenses.

 

I find myself agreeing with both of you ! lol

 

"Joe Louis was 137 years old"

I assume this was a typo.

"The Louis who fought Rocky wasn't the same Louis who dominated the division with 25 title defenses."

Whether Louis was past his best is not the issue, though. The issue is was he the best big man available? And he was whatever his limitations at this point in his career.

*aside--Louis had more than just a jab. See the film of the Savold fight.

"A lack of evidence is simply that, a lack of evidence."

I try not to draw conclusions or construct theories on a lack of evidence. Just doesn't seem to me to be a good foundation.

 

I don't need to reference the Savold fight. I can reference the Rocky fight. Louis was gunshy and primarily relied on his jab.

I am not constructing theories based on a lack of evidence. I'm saying in the absence of evidence, I have doubts about Rocky's style against big men with modern training and technique. Rocky was an aggressive, front footed guy who weighed 187 lbs soaking wet. It's common sense that he might encounter some serious problems against skilled big men who outweigh him by 40-60 lbs when much smaller, older heavies gave him hell. We've seen smaller, shorter heavies attempt to make it in the more modern era and they usually don't succeed.

 

U literally just had Usyk who was outweighed by 40 pounds fighting on his front foot against a man 5 inches taller and three years younger. I think many of u put far too much emphasis on weight. Things like style, chin, speed, power etc are far more important when determing the outcome of a fight in the Hw division.
There are individuals Rocky would have trouble with that were big. Lennox being at the top of the list. But imo that’s because of style. Lennox was extremely versatile with a great jab. He could fight the boring fight to beat Marciano or he could blitz him like Walcott did in round 1. Walcott had the right idea. But couldn’t execute partly because of age and partly due to Marciano being a relentless animal. I don’t think Liston was clever enough to pull off Walcott did. He will keep coming forward on Marciano which plays into his style. He’s not fast enough to keep Marciano away from him. Marciano would control the distance and with that the fight. Styles make fights not weight.

 

Liston wouldn't keep Marciano away from him, nor would he want to.