The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

Wow. I'm the other way around. Legacy wise, Dempsey takes a hit for not facing Wills, and more importantly sitting on the title while going to Hollywood.

Marciano is my number three or four in that regard.

H2H Dempsey has a HUGE advantage in terms of speed, and size, which would help him fair better against a wider majority of fighters than Marciano.

 

Shkor was not ever a fringe contender.

 

Yeah, fringe contender is awfully generous. He was the equivalent of what Derrick Chisora is today in terms of his career. Not even top 20 worthy.

 

Yeah I didn't get that one either tbh. I assumed Luf said it in jest.

I don't think Shkor ever had a top ten rating in his career?

 

Rusty Payne was a top ten contender in the late 40s and Shkor beat him.

Fringe means different things to different people. I'd call Chisora a fringe contender also tbh.

But what's indisputable is that Shkor was a big man, and Rocky beat him, hence "The Shkor Extrapolation"

 

Dempsey & Co. pretty much invented big time/big event boxing. In the historical sense, he was a watershed fighter, not just for the division but for the entire sport, and for the sporting world itself.

Marciano merely was a placeholder fighting retreads during a transitory period in the sport.

Head to head, I see Marciano lasting through Dempsey's early quick rounds and responding in kind, and wearing him down as he fades. Marciano did ultimately crowd and time his faster opponents. Certainly Dempsey could put him down but I don't see him putting him out, especially as Marciano did not avoid firefights and would certainly be landing his own. Brennan and Gibbons lasted a long while and they were no Marciano as far as durable heavies go.

 

I do not regard Moore as past it. Moore was a late bloomer.

Marciano's competition was fine. Walcott and Charles were a bit past it but they were still highly skilled slick boxers. And the Moore win was a good one. Marciano showed he could handle clever boxers well. I could see Marciano matching up pretty well vs guys like Holmes, Usyk, Holyfield. Not saying he would necessarily win those but that he would match up well despite being outweighed by 30 plus pounds.

Where Marciano's competition is lacking is in fighting big men who were big punchers. Unlike Louis, he doesn't have wins over Budy Baer or Max Baer. Rocky actually had good defense but we don't know how his chin would hold up vs a Lewis or Tua type puncher. This makes it hard to make a case for a top 5 spot. However, despite the fact that i believe he matches poorly vs big hard hitting heavies, he matches up pretty well vs any other style.

Combine this with the fact he fought everyone in his era, has amazing stamina, incredible power and toughness, a spot in the lower half of the top 10 is merited.

 

Payne afaik fell out of the ratings when he was badly outclassed by the relatively obscure Johnny Flynn.

I've seen zero evidence Shkor was ever ranked and quite frankly a win over Shkor means absolute squat when assessing how Marciano would do against guys like Lewis, Wlad, Fury, and even second rate punchers like Ruddock and Bruno.

His wins over Moore, Charles, and Walcott are far far more meaningful imo.

 

You will have seen zero evidence because like almost every boxing fan you probably rely on the annual rankings from boxrec.

If you had the monthly issues you'd have seen an appearance by Shkor.

As I said I'm not calling Shkor great. I'm saying he was a fringe contender who was a big man.

He forms the basis of "The Shkor Extrapolation"

 

I do NOT rely on the annual rankings from boxrec. I admittedly don't have the monthly issues so I usually dig through newspaper archives. I did find evidence Payne was rated including a number 3 rating by the Ring. But I've seen zero evidence Shkor was ranked. I admittedly don't have the monthly issues at my disposal.

 

There was a man who used to post, hhascup I think he posted as, who had computerized all The Ring monthly ratings. He said Shkor was rated 9th after his win over Mauriello.

The "obscure" Johnny Flynn was the #4 Ring heavyweight contender in 1948.

Raises the issue of obscure to whom? He apparently was not all that obscure to the ratings folks in 1948.

 

Hhascup.

He has every monthly issue ever and compiled a database.

Hope the guy is ok.

 

Rocky fought 13 different Opponents 16 times that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. (16-0)
Beshore, Charles 2, Cockell, LaStarza 2, Layne, Louis, Matthews, Moore, Muscato, Reynolds, Savold, Shkor and Walcott 2.

 

There is far less weight difference between Marciano and Liston then Usyk n Fury.

Marciano was also extremely skilled defensively. He also used his style to negate the reach disadvantage and get inside. The fact that u can’t c this is disturbing for Marciano but rightfully point it out w Usyk. Styles r different but end goal is the same. Control space and tempo. There isn’t a fighter that lives that remotely bothered Marciano in doing these things other than Walcott 1 where imo Rocky was nervous and came out cold then was blinded by his own trainers. Liston wasn’t as skilled as Marciano’s best opponents and they couldn’t keep him at bay, imo his only advantage is his strength.

 

Johnny Flynn is a good example of why it is difficult to judge these past eras and I think it should be approached with a restraint and a respect for the old ratings because those were the folks who were there watching these men.

Flynn has a mediocre won-lost record, something like 43-33. He career was stained with long losing streaks.

On the other side of the ledger, like many in that era, he fought them all,

and had wins over

Tommy Gomez, Joey Maxim, Lee Q. Murray, Buddy Knox, Pat Comiskey, Rusty Payne, and Melio Bettina.

A solid list for an in and outer and mainly fringe contender.