The dismissal of Sonny Liston from boxing history.

@cross_trainer

 

Most don’t understand the intense climate going into the rematch but the fact is Sonny not only took a dive (the flash knockdown part is maybe possible if you give it every benefit of the doubt) but regardless to be on the mat for all that time with the roll over simply pathetic and absurd. When you have that putrid act after his flat out quitting in the first fight you see and gigantic fall from Grace of a man who so recently earlier was considered so mighty. He went from feared to a bully/quitter to a national farce in a very short time and that’s why so many have airbrushed the fact that in his prime he was a beast. His age, inactivity pre Clay , it all matters but the basic core was on Sonny

 

I think his age and inactivity matter a lot.

One can question his not persevering in Miami, even with an injury.

However, the evidence does suggest that he did incur an injury during the fight, and was also carrying a pre-existing condition going into the fight otherwise.

He endeavoured to rise, but Ali persisted in circling him close by. You’ll notice when Liston had propped himself up on one arm to rise - he let himself fall back down as soon as Ali buzzed by him yet again.

So, as Liston later attested to - he was reluctant to rise with Ali still in close proximity.

So yeah, it was an “act” falling back down - but only in so far as Liston being leery of being hit on the way up.

Ali was acting like a maniac upon the KD - suspecting that he might strike out at Liston while he was arising wasn’t so far fetched -

Ali didn’t retreat to a neutral corner at all - he was absolutely in breach of the rules from the get go after the KD and no count whatsoever could be applied until he did retreat.

As such, Walcott didn’t apply a count. When Ali had finally retreated properly - Liston did arise. The fight recommenced but Walcott then, inexplicably, stopped the fight on Nat F’s say so.

I think there’s more air brushing of the true facts and actual sequence of events in Maine in order to frame it more easily as a clear cut dive.

Liston wasn’t the cause of (nor was he answerable for) the individual actions of Ali, Walcott and Nat F - actions that were highly irregular, in fact illegal and a major contribution to the chaos that ensued after the KD.

 

Foneda Cox ,Liston's sparmate and friend said he braced Sonny about why he didnt tell him he was going into the tank in the 2nd fight Cox had told Sonny Im putting a big bet one you ,Sonny said ,"dont do that ,with two heavyweights anything can happen."
Cox related that Sonny's reply to him not being given a heads up was,with your big mouth,we'd both be wearing cement boots." .

 

Fleischer merely related the fact to Walcott that the timekeeper had counted Liston out.
Walcott should have apprised himself of where the timekeeper was sitting before the fight began,but he didnt,he totally lost control of the fight.Ali was also badly at fault as the timekeeper later said," that nut was responsible for all that mess" .Sonny may have had an injury,but he was defending the title ,he thought he would blow Ali out in2 rounds,and trained/did not train accordingly
.He was unable to catch Ali and was shipping punishment and running out of steam.I think he just said, **** it I don't need this,I'm getting beat up here. Rather like Duran Leonard 2

When he went back to his corner after the 6th rd he told Willie Reddish,"that's it," Reddish took that to mean he was going out to blast Ali in the next round,but when he tried to put Sonny's mouthpiece in Sonny spat it out and said ,"I said that's it."

 

Problem for me is Mac, the timekeeper isn’t empowered to count a fighter out, only the ref is.

And the count couldn’t start until Ali actually went to and remained in a neutral corner.

Walcott didn’t give a count - and Liston should’ve been availed of a count by the referee - just like any other downed fighter.

Fleischer would’ve or should’ve known all
this - so Fleischer was wrong telling Walcott to call the fight based on a non existent count.

He was neither the time keeper or the ref - and I am not aware of his having any official capacity otherwise. I do understand, and I could be wrong, that Nat F wasn’t a fan of Liston FWIW.

 

Gallender's claims seem to stem from an article written shortly after Liston's death.

"Once a little old man came trudging into the sports department of a Texas newspaper, carrying a shabby old scrapbook under one arm. l ie produced some clippings from the East St. Louis Journal of 1934 showing a 17-year old kid named Charles (Sailor) Liston whose gimmick was a peacoat and a white Navy cap, which he wore into the ring instead of a robe. The face had aged, but the glare was unmistakable. That would have made Sonny 53 when he died in Las Vegas the other day and 47 on that historic evening at the Miami Beach Convention Hall when he salon his stool and refused to come out for the seventh round against a fighter who was then called Cassius Marcellus Clay. A reporter covering that fight showed Liston photostats of the clippings. He stared at them for a second and blew smoke out of his nostrils.

"Bullfur!" he snapped. Later on, Sonny insisted that the pictures showed a cousin of his, also known as Charles Liston, who had boxed for awhile. "

Article clipped from The San Francisco Examiner - Newspapers.com™

I've searched endlessly for that picture and found sfa.

I found another article that listed a bout with this Sailor Liston.

"Now a record of a fight has been discovered between two light-heavyweights in East St. Louis, Missouri— Deacon Leo Kelly, of Vicksburg knocked out a big, awkward coloured kid nicknamed " Sailor ", because he wore a US Navy jacket, in three rounds. The victory for Kelly, a well known fighter, who had fought Maxie Rosenbloom, was registered against " Sailor " Liston. -date of that fight was November 1933 !

OLD-TIMERS SAY No age was given for "Sailor" Liston thirty-one years ago, because it was then possible for boys, who looked older than their years, to falsify their ages.

This Liston might possibly have been one of Sonny's many brothers. His father sired two dozen children from two marriages. But old-timers around East St. Louis today insist that "Sailor" Liston is Sonny Liston, which puts the former world champion around the 48-year-old mark."

Article clipped from Sunday Mirror - Newspapers.com™

"One cold November night in 1933, an awkward 18-year-old youth stepped into the ring of an E. St. Louis club to fight light-heavyweight 'Deacon' Leo Kelly of Vicksburg, Miss. Kelly, a notorious puncher, who had fought the likes of Maxie Rosenbloom, Oscar Rankins and Ron Richards, scored a three-round kayo over the awkward Negro boy who was nicknamed 'Sailor' because of the navy pea-jacket he always wore. "In Kelly's record, the three-round victory is registered over 'Sailor' Liston.

Old-timers around E. St. Louis insist that 'Sailor' Liston is none other than Sonny Liston. If this is correct, it proves Liston is 49 years old!"

Article clipped from Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Newspapers.com™

" Fight promoter Pinkie George, commenting on a newspaper clipping dated Nov. 18, 1933, referring to a fighter named Charles (Sailor) Liston: "Sailor Liston and Sonny Liston are the same guy. If he was 17 or 18 31 years ago, he'd be pushing 50 now. But that's not impossible. Everybody in the business knows Sonny's got a 21-year-old daughter.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a grandfather.".

Article clipped from The Des Moines Register - Newspapers.com™

Now their is a bout between Deacon Kelly and a Sailor Liston.... but it's in May of 1933, not November, and their was no KO, it went to a four round decision. Their's also no way Sailor Liston was 16 years old in 1933, considering he'd already been a professional for ten years, unless he turned pro at 6 years old. But most importantly.... Sailor Liston was white. BoxRec: Sailor Liston

So Sailor Liston clearly was not Sonny Liston. Considering this is the only thing that hints at a 1917 birth year, I think we can safely rule it out.

 

He was heavyweight champion of the world, coming off winning it by one-round KO and defending it by same, when there was only one heavyweight champ and it was the singular most important title in all of sports.

He did it in his highest-profile, highest-stake fights.

What happens relatively early in someone’s career or at the end when they’re just taking paydays as an opponent well past their sell-by date isn’t usually regarded the same as when they are champion and the entire sport’s (and sporting world’s) spotlight is on them.

To say people should ignore it isn’t intellectually dishonest. People recognize that Sonny cleaned out the division more or less and won the title in dominant fashion. They also recognize that he folded when the heat is on. Both are part of his legacy.

 

I totally agree his age mattered. He was certainly north of 35 and had been highly inactive ... my point is the macro and if the thread is why has Liston been airbrushed from boxing history the answer his behavior in the Clay fights ... quitting on a stool rather than going out fighting, a clear decision he made followed by the dive. Those two decisive moves sealed his fate. On 2-24-64 Sonny Liston was regarded as one of the most dangerous and dominating fighters that ever fought in the heavyweight division. On 5-25-65 he was a pathetic farce, a national joke. The fall was devastating and he never came close to recovering. His age, inactivity, the legacy of his shoulder, the insanity and danger circling Lewiston and Ali's hysteria , why all have some merit mean zero in the sum gain of his fall and character assassination.

We he quit on his stool it was after a very tame round and it appeared to everyone watching it that he was a bully who said screw it . No one said at the end of the sixth they thought Liston was in danger of getting stopped. That's why the announcers went wild when they saw him stay on his stool. It was shock and disbelief. The rematch dive is a stand alone for perhaps the worst farce ever recorded in heavyweight history. When this is compounded by Liston's entire saga, his aura, his attitude and the fact that he sunk back into the depths from when he came at the end of his life the details which have some merit in rounding out edges are secondary.

 

Sure, if the premise of the thread was WHY Liston was dismissed, I agree, it would be the two Ali fights - factoring how those fights were broadly perceived.

But, the crux of the OP is that the perceptions and consequential historical dismissal of Liston were unfair - and I totally agree with that.

For all the shady dealings and shady players in and around that time, and as if often the case in boxing all the time in varying degrees - the singling out of Liston was notable - and again, a lot of that comes back to Cus and his fierce protection of Patterson - Cus, who wasn’t at all squeaky clean himself.

Broadly viewed in kind, Liston’s only controversies in the ring were against Ali, otherwise, Ali had his own controversies atop those fights.

There were periods during Liston’s career during which the powers that be decided Liston’s fate based on his past, not by his current actions.

These periods were before he finally got his shot at Patterson - a title shot he was unjustifiably deflected from for a period - and also after the Ali fights when he was basically shut out - the fall guy, yet again.

Post Ali fights, no controversies in the ring, rather, some very respectable performances posted by an even older and more deteriorated Liston.

 

Unfair not sure, inaccurate, such as airbrushing the exceptional dominance in his prime because of what came after is totally unfair and inaccurate .. there was a window when he was an exceptional fighter without question.

 

After the first go round with Ali in Miami in Feb.1964...when Sonny QUIT while sitting on his stool as champion because my "shoulder" was hurting. After the debacle was over...Liston's trainers brought out an X-ray to show to the press. One of the sports writers said,"I wonder who's x-ray that really is?" ...and they all laughed! I was around then...nobody believed it then...and they most certainly didn't believe the "Phantom" punch up in Maine in May 1965...Liston took a DIVE. Ali got into his head...simple as that! In the Leotis Martin fight in December 1969 which was shown live on ABC TV...Liston knocked Martin down...Martin got up and kept his cool. Later on Liston got cut and the whole fight changed...Howard Cosell is yelling, "Sonny is tasting his own blood"...then Martin lands his right...and Sonny goes down and out! He wasn't mentally tough!