Which of these does Usyk beat

I'm not really good at making lists I find it hard to rank so many fighters and trying to place them in order.

But if I was to list some random names off the top of my head......

Sugar Ray Robinson
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Henry Armstrong
Roberto Duran
RJJ
Thomas Hearns
Marvin Hagler
Willie Pep
Harry Greb
Evander Holyfield
Sugar Ray Leonard
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Manny Pacquiao
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Pernell Whitaker
Archie Moore
Bernard Hopkins
Alexis Arguello
Bob Fitzsimmons
Joe Gans
Mickey Walker
Jimmy Wilder
Gene Tunney

I mean that's 25 names alone that I find it hard for Usyk to be rated above them. So I think you could be right more like a top 40 ATG maybe.

 

Lets scrutinize a bit further. We'll use McGrains list as it's the one all the cool kids use. So the below are the guys he'd have to push out.

01 - Sam Langford
02 - Harry Greb
03 - Sugar Ray Robinson
04 - Henry Armstrong
05 - Ezzard Charles
06 - Bob Fitzsimmons
07 - Muhammad Ali
08 - Joe Gans
09 - Joe Louis
10 - Roberto Duran.
11 - Benny Leonard
12 - Mickey Walker
13 - Willie Pep
14 - Barney Ross
15 - Archie Moore
16 - Ray Leonard
17 - George Dixon
18 - Terry McGovern
19 - Packey McFarland
20 - Pernell Whitaker
21 - Tony Canzoneri
22 - Jimmy McLarnin
23 - Sandy Saddler
24 - Stanley Ketchel
25 - Charley Burley
26 - Holman Williams
27 - Billy Conn
28 - Gene Tunney
29 - Roy Jones
30 - Joe Walcott

Say he came in at #30, here are some random names below him.

31 - Carlos Monzon
33 - Eder Jofre
34 - Marvin Hagler
35 - Julio Cesar Chavez
40 - Jose Napoles
41 - Alexis Arguello
54 - Ruben Olivares
62 - Salvador Sanchez
77 - Larry Holmes
97 - James Toney

 

Yeah when you look at it like that it's a bit of an eye opener.

You've probably seen me debating in GF forum in regards to Holyfield being rated above Usyk. Alot of people seem to disagree with me which was baffling to me in honestly......

Holyfield's Resume

Qawi x2
De Leon
Tyson x2
Bowe
Moorer
Holmes
Foreman
Dokes
Mercer
Douglas
Thomas
Cooper = I'm including him because hes 90s version of Chisora.
Stewart


Vs

Usyk's Resume

Hunter
Gassiev
Joshua x2
Fury
Chisora
Huck
Breidis
Bellew
Glowacki
Dubois

Yeah Holyfield had some losses in amongst those wins but he was consistently fighting top 10 ranked opposition for over a decade.....

Someone said Usyk is the GOAT for beating Joshua and Fury but I fail to see how Fury is better than a 1993 version of Bowe or Joshua being better than even a 1996 version of Tyson.

 

Holyfield is #55 on Matt's list.

 

I agree that Holyfield's overall resume (cw + hw combined) is a little ahead of Usyk.

But i don't agree that Tyson in 96 is better than 2020 Joshua. Tyson in 1996 was a 4 round fighter. Very dangerous but hadn't been battle tested. A good heavyweight who could survive 4 rounds with him would always be able to wear him down late in the fight. 96 Tyson didn't have the consistent head movement or stamina of 88 Tyson.

Joshua in 2020 was at the peak of his powers. Stylistically 96 Tyson may beat 2020 Joshua since Tyson is a bad style match up for Anthony. But 2020 Joshua would be able to beat a wider range of heavyweights than 96 Tyson who had to get you out of there in 4 rounds.

Remember Tyson beat no one of note except a one eyed Bruno post prison.

 

I'm not all that into making lists either. It's painstaking stuff. And, the examples you give above kind of demonstrate why.

There's just such a rich history to break through and, once you put Usyk's current relevancy aside and look at him against the true backdrop all time, he starts to look less shiny, albeit still excellent in the context of today.

 

That's a case in point without really scratching the surface, JT.

 

Guys in bold are the ones i can't rank Usyk ahead of. Guys like Greb, SRR, Langford etc. have way too many wins. SRL beat even better competition P4P than Usyk has and Ali's resume is the best in HW history. Louis defended his title 25 times etc.

RJJ Usyk is interesting. I do not count RJJ's post prime losses against him. And he has two wins over legit top 100 P4P fighters in Hopkins and Toney that Usyk does not.

However, i would argue that Usyk dominated a stronger weight class at cruiserweight than RJJ did at light - heavyweight. Jones's competition post Toney until Ruiz was pretty mediocre. While Usyk dominated a loaded cruiserweight division and then quickly moved up and took on 2 legit top 30-35 all time heavies.

IMO Usyk has more depth in his resume. Fury, Joshua x 2, Bredis, Bellew, Gassiev, Huck etc vs RJJ's best wins over Toney, Hopkins, Hill, Ruiz etc. I don't know if i rank RJJ ahead of Usyk to be honest.

 

I'd have Holyfield ahead of Usyk and I'd agree that Joshua is not better than a '96 Tyson. IMO, neither Joshua nor Fury will rank particularly highly in the ATG Heavyweights, as it stands.

 

I am not heavily into making P4P lists. Too many divisions, too many eras. Way too complicated. However, it is interesting to have a broad discussion. Usyk certainly isn't top 20 of all time - too many guys with too many wins. Ezzard Charles, for example, has 3 wins over Archie Moore, 2 of Jersey Joe Walcott, 2 over Jimmy Bivins, Joey Maxim, 2 over Charley Burley and even one against Elmer Ray. Charles has far too many good wins. Usyk would need to defend his crown 7-8 times vs legit top 10 contenders to even be in the same conversation. And i say this as a big Usyk can.

So some people are getting carried away by saying he is all time top 10 P4P or that they favour him to beat Ali, Foreman etc. But if you look at the list above, his accomplishments are comparable to many guys who are commonly ranked 30-50 on such lists. So while i do not have a list myself, i would say top 30 isn't a stretch. 30-50 is roughly where i would put him.

 

I don't think 95/96 Tyson needs more than four rounds to beat Joshua.

I can imagine Tyson/Joshua not looking too dissimilar Tyson/Bruno II.

 

Yes i agree 96 Tyson would maul Joshua and finish him in 3 rounds. Joshua does not match up well vs a pressure fighter with Tyson's unusual handspeed and power.

That does not, however, make Holyfield's win over 96 Tyson better than Usyk beating Joshua. Joshua is better than 1996 Tyson because he would be able to beat a wider pool of heavies than 96 Tyson. 2020 Joshua was arguably the best heavy in the world. 1996 Tyson wasn't as good as Lewis or perhaps even Bowe. I think this version of Tyson would struggle even against Ray Mercer, for example. Anyone whom he couldn't get out of there in 4 rounds. IMO Usyk's 2 wins over a prime Joshua surpass Holyfield's two wins over post prison Tyson.

 

Man Machine not having an L take challenge literally impossible.

 

I don't see why people downplay three wins over fighters who were way bigger and had every physical advantage, people underestimate how hard something like that is to overcome especially when the bigger fighter is genuinely pretty skilled.

 

I agree. Joshua is legitimately a top 30 heavyweight all time and would be at least a top contender in any era. He had one loss prior to Usyk and is legitimately one of the more skilled big men in heavyweight boxing history. It isn't easy overcoming a 20 lb weight disadvantage, a power disadvantage, and a 4 inch reach disadvantage.

Same thing with Fury. So many on these forums thought Usyk was too small and now that he overcame these highly skilled giants, we are supposed to pretend that they weren't that good to begin with. Both Fury and Joshua would be top fighters in any era. No, they aren't unbeatable, but there is no era where they wouldn't be legitimately top 5 in the world.