The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

If you ain't gonna be big, you damn well better be fast. Dempsey, Patterson, Frazier, Tyson, Byrd.

You you ain't either, you better pick an era of older, smaller dudes in which to make your hay. Marciano.

 

Y'know, this is an observation that's rarely addressed by Rocky supporters. While he wasn't slow as molasses, Rocky was certainly not some sort of speed demon when it came to his hands and feet, and could be awkward and clumsy even when he was champion. He was no defensive wizard either and relied on his power and endurance to simply overwhelm people in most fights.

So I'm confused why Rocky supporters always cite either short guys who had extremely good speed, or short guys with extremely good defense. Rocky had neither. You can't be giving up height, reach, weight, ring IQ, speed, and skill, and expect to beat much larger opponents outside of the proverbial puncher's chance (a chance that gets smaller and smaller the bigger and more elite the opponent).

 

Sure but realistically he seemed headed for a stoppage loss in the first Ali fight and would have been floored had he not quit. Williams might have stopped him as well had he possessed a better chin/defense so withstand the punches coming back at him.

But fair enough his chin wasn't terrible just not tested to the degree I have confidence in it.

 

I'll grant he didn't do a lot of fighting on the inside in preference for other ranges but who put it over him inside? People barely ever got there and if a Marciano type did and Liston didn't prefer it he'd soon push him off and resume raking him on the way in. Rocky would take fight ending punishment during his continued advances. Liston showed he could not only devastate a croucher with uppercuts but also feint them into position for incoming bombs, potentially fight ending bombs. It's just not a good match for The Rock. It's far worse than Frazier, Ali, Holmes etc. The only worse match might be Foreman.

 

You don't know that any of the bolded would've happened.

 

I 100% respect this opinion. I just see it differently. I never saw anyone keep Marciano at bay or the distance they wanted. This isn’t Patterson or Frazier head first style. If it were I’d pick Liston. Marciano was also not susceptible to the uppercut. Because he constantly crowded and pushed people off balance or leaned to the side away and countered. U won’t find film of him getting peppered w uppercuts. U can c people try to hit him w it but it’s often deflected safely off his gloves. I’ve heard people use this argument but in reality no one was able to utilize the uppercut successfully against him. I don’t c a much slower than he’s accustomed opponent in Liston being more successful. I would like to know how Mariano handles the body shots Liston would throw? Never stopped him before but Charles did bother him w body shots in the first fight. So long as Marciano can handle those he will control the spacing and w that I don’t think Liston will land what he needs to win. I don’t think this is a terrible match for Marciano. I think Marciano’s worst match ups are Foreman and Tyson. I think if u can get dirty w Marciano and blitz him like Walcott did in that first round it’s the way to go. Push hold and hit or w Tyson use his superior speed etc. that’s just not Listons game. But I respect Listons skills and the idea that he could dominate this fight I just don’t c it w the two men’s styles.

 

Fair enough. For now i'll only add that Liston is, very obviously, a vastly different opponent to any Marciano ever fought. I'll refresh myself on Marciano in coming days, it's been a good while.

 

Read about the Whitehurst fights Sonny had. The first one Bert had a ton of success doing exactly what I said Marciano would do. He would crowd him and stay safe on the inside. He couldn’t stop Bert twice (something Moore who some people think couldn’t punch did!) As much as people say Marciano never faced a puncher I’d say he faced just as good punchers as Liston. So maybe Liston never faced a puncher as hard as Marciano. If Marty and Ali could knock him down I have little doubt Marciano could

 

"Charles (Sonny) Liston of St. Louis, scoring repeatedly with both hands, won a unanimous decision over Bert Whitehurst of Baltimore Thursday night in a 10 round heavyweight bout. Liston, who weighed 205 to Whitehurst's 192, had the Baltimore fighter on the verge of a knockout with a savage attack in the 5th. It was Liston's 17th victory against one defeat as a pro . UD for Liston 1st fight.

• Whitehurst was knocked through the ropes in the final seconds of the fight. The Associated Press reported: "In a wild flurry of lefts and rights, Liston sent Whitehurst reeling through the ropes. Whitehurst lay on the apron as referee Harry Kessler began his count. He was trying to get back in the ring when the final gong sounded at the count of eight."

• Whitehurst was knocked through the ropes in the final seconds of the fight. The Associated Press reported: "In a wild flurry of lefts and rights, Liston sent Whitehurst reeling through the ropes. Whitehurst lay on the apron as referee Harry Kessler began his count. He was trying to get back in the ring when the final gong sounded at the count of eight."Score cards 50-37,48-39,50-40All for Liston
• 2nd fight.

Sonny Liston Vs Bert Whitehurst II (24.10.1958) - Full Fight Colorized Best Quality (youtube.com)
You don't think this is a ko?
Who are the some people who think Moore couldn't punch?BTW Liston had had 17 fights when he first fought39 figh Whitehurst.
Moore had had197 when he fought Whitehurst who was stopped on his feet by a tko.

 

https://vault.si.com/vault/1964/02/10/the-four-who-baffled-liston
Also the different standards for different fighters is astounding. U make the point of stating Moore only knocked out Bert on his feet in an attempt to diminish his power while at the same time giving Liston credit for a nonexistent KO. U really don’t think u hold Marciano and his opponents to a higher degree of evaluation? We can look at Listons record and come to the same conclusion that he never fought and real monster punchers. Think it goes to far with the microscope of records despite some good points from both sides everyone’s records can be broken down to absurd levels

 

Wilder only kayoed one top 10 heavyweight, I don't think Ruddock kayoed any, If lack of quality kayoes disqualifies Moore it would disqualify these two as well plus Corrie Sanders

Bivins and Baker are quality stoppage wins

 

Moore is being trashed, so let's see what rated or ever rated heavyweights he stopped:

Colion Chaney (12-13-1945)--KO 5, Chaney weighed 182 lbs. The NBA rated him the #10 contender in the Sept 16, 1948 ratings

Buddy Walker (8-19-1946)--KO 4, Walker weighed 193 lbs. Walker was rated in 1940 & 1941. His highest rating was #5 contender in the September 10, 1940 NBA rankings.

Jimmy Bivins (9-8-1947, 4-11-1949, 2-21-1951) KO's 8, 8, 9, Bivins weighed at least 184 lbs. Rated for years, before and after the fights with Moore. The NBA ratings of April 5, 1949 had Bivins the #5 contender, with no champion, so he was rated when Moore stopped him in that fight for certain, and also probably in 1947.

Bob Satterfield (1-31-1949), KO 3. Satterfield weighed 175 lbs and was the #4 ranked light-heavyweight. He would go on to be ranked in the both the light-heavy and heavyweight divisions for years.

Phil Muscato (10-24-1949) KO 5. Muscato weighed 184 lbs. He had been rated #7 by the NBA in the ratings of April 10, 1947, but was on a losing streak.

Alberto Lovell (7=7-1951) KO 1. Lovell weighed 199 lbs. He had been ranked for several years in the late thiries and early forties. His highest ranking was in the NBA rankings of Sept. 14, 1937 when he was the #4 contender.

Bob Dunlap (5-19-1952, 2-27-1956) KO 6, KO 1. Dunlap weighed 180 lbs. in 1952. 200 in 1956. He was the #8 ranked contender in the NBA ratings of April 12, 1952, and so was ranked when Moore KO'd him.

Bob Baker (3-9-1954) KO 9. Baker weighed 209 lbs. He had been ranked highly earlier and would go on to be the #1 ranked heavyweight contender in the NBA ratings of January 16, 1956.

James J Parker (7-25-1956) KO 9. Parker weighed 211 lbs. He had been ranked the #10 contender in the NBA rankings of April 6, 1955.

Roger Rischer (11-29-1957) KO 4. Rischer weighed 184 lbs. He would go on to be rated from 1962 through 1964, reaching the #6 contender status in the December, 1964 ratings.

Willi Besmanoff (5-25-1960) KO 10. Besmanoff weighed 198 lbs. He had been rated #10 in the April, 1957, NBA ratings.

Alejandro Lavorante (3-30-1962) KO 10. Lavorante weighed 211 lbs. He was rated #4 in the February, 1962 NBA ratings, going into the Moore fight. The previous month he had been #3.

 

So Moore had 15 KO victories over 12 ever rated heavyweight opponents.

He had at least three KO's over men rated at the time he fought them, and probably a couple more.

These opponents had been rated, were rated, or would be rated in the future.

I think this record stands up to most who was never champion in this division. How many ever ranked contenders did Cleveland Williams KO? Or even Max Baer? Let alone Buddy? Or Firpo?

As for dismissing the Baker stoppage on the basis that he supposedly wasn't rated the day Moore fought him, but had been for years previously, and would be for years later, all the way to #1 contender,

This seems to me to be as valid as saying Schmeling or Norton never beat a champion, because Louis and Ali were not champions when Max and Ken beat them. Talk about missing the forest for not just a tree, but for a twig.

 

Let's ask a few questions

How many men did Max Baer knock out who were rated when he fought them? Tentatively, I believe five. Tuffy Griffith, Max Schmeling, Primo Carnera, Tony Galento, and Pat Comiskey. And most consider Baer a top level puncher.

How many fighters who were rated at the time did George Foreman KO in his comeback. The Boxing Register says one--Moorer.

How many rated heavyweights did Joe Frazier KO. The Boxing Register says five. Chuvalo, Ramos, Quarry, Ellis, Quarry again.

Ken Norton? Just two. Quarry and Bobich.