The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

No. It is not a simple question. What is your definition of elite?

Moore does not rate with Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Foreman.

But compared to other mere contenders he shows very well. He KO'd heavyweights who were or would be rated from 1945 to 1962 and few could match that longevity.

I think Moore is a more dangerous puncher at heavyweight than, among others, Tom Sharkey, Luis Angel Firpo, Tony Galento, Nino Valdes, Cleveland Williams, and Mike DeJohn.

"Have you ever seen a list rating the biggest heavyweight punchers"

Not that many. But why genuflect to somebody's list. Elmer Ray was on The Ring's list of big punchers (in all divisions) but after scrutinizing his record, I don't think he was a good choice. Cleveland Williams is probably on these lists also. It is like the Zsa Zsa Gabor thing. She was famous mainly for being famous. Some are famous for being big punchers, but don't have the KO's over top men to support it.

 

My elite heavyweight punchers are
Liston
Dempsey
Foreman
Wilder
Williams
Shavers
Louis
Tua
Ruddock
Cooney
Morrison
Lyle
M Baer
Tyson


Moore is not among them and at Light heavyweight

I don't think Moore hit as hard as Bob Foster.
Neither am I convinced he hit any harder than.
Beterbiev
Stevenson
M Spinks
Moorer
Marshall
Satterfield
Durelle
Kovalev
At Light Heavy.
I'm genuflecting to nobody, I'm stating equivocally that Archie Moore is literally on NOBODIES list of elite heavyweight punchers.
NOBODY that is except for Gazelle Punch!
Who puts Moore among the elite punchers to hype his idol Marciano.

 

As I stated Moore and Nino record do not compare. Moore’s KO record is miles ahead of Nino. They really shouldn’t be compared. It’s not fair to Nino. Moore KOs HOF caliber fighters. Along the lines of similar opponents like Baker, Satterfield, Johnson Nd a few others Nino lost but Archie knocked out those men. They are not the same

 

Results speak louder than words. Moore knocked out better men than all of those guys except Dempsey Liston and Foreman. Hard to argue otherwise. Also Archie Moore is ranked all time ahead of Marciano. He doesn’t need to be hyped up his record speaks for itself. I’d say u don’t need to belittle his accomplishments to bring down Rocky. Just won’t work with a top tier HOF caliber fighter

 

You said Valdes best scalp was against London and that London was winning the fight but lost because of his cut.
London was far from being Valdes' best scalp and I provided better examples.I also corrected you on your statement that London was winning at the time of the stoppage,he wasn't.

I'm not comparing Valdes to Moore,I'm simply stating he stopped more ranked heavyweights than Moore did.
Neither Moore or Valdes were elite punchers at heavyweight.imo and their names are not on any list ATG heavyweight punchers list I have ever seen.

Being a top tier HOF does not indicate you are an elite puncher.
Greb
Ali
Leonard
Pep
Charles
And dozens of others are top tier HO Famers, none were elite punchers.

 

Baker was not ranked he had lost to Henry in Dec 53 Satterfield in July 53 and he fought Moore in March 54.
I've already said Lavorante was ranked. Baer floored Schmeling and he dropped Carnera11 times.Moore did not drop Lavaorante who was indded carried out on a stretcher and the ring Doctor diagnosed acute exhaustion I have the Ring write up fo the fight so
,"dont argue with me" because I am special,lol

"Nino Valdes of Cuba demanded top rating among heavyweight contenders today because of his impressive victories over European champion Heinz Neuhaus, Sunday, and ex-world champion Ezzard Charles on August 11th. The kayo - at 2:10 of the 4th round - was witnessed by 19,000 fans here in the huge indoor Westfalen Halle. Most of the fans were bitterly disappointed when they saw Neuhaus suffer the first kayo in his career of 33 professional fights. They had figured him a potential world champion." -United Press

• This victory elevated Valdes to #1 contender in Ring Magazine's heavyweight ratings.

Valdes beat Neuhaus on the 15th of November1953.
He then beat
McBride
Parker
Sys ko
Jackson ko
Walls ko
Flood ko
Wood ko He didn't lose to Moore until 2nd of May 1954. So tell me how he lost his rating especially as he stopped 3 Ranked men in that 8 fight winning spell?
Don't argue with you?
Why, who are you lol ? Apart from an insulting poster who thinks he knows everything?[/QUOTE]

"Parker"

Went the distance with Valdes. He was KO'd by Moore.

Valdes does have a strong record of meeting good men, and beating quite a few of them. But he lost twice to Moore, and also to Johnson and Satterfield, and twice to Baker. Moore KO'd Johnson, Satterfield, and Baker. Who was rated and when and if not or in what division doesn't explain how Moore was able to KO men that Valdes lost to.

Valdes was not rated in August, 1959, when he fought Liston, but I don't think this is critical. Valdes was on top a long time and he is a good scalp for Liston, at least on par with Williams, and I judge a better scalp than DeJohn.

 

Moore 185 wins, 23 losses, 11 draws and 1 no contest, with 131 official knockouts. A lot of them were HW's over the 175 pound
limit, quite a few over 200 and some guys bigger than Usyk. No wins over great HW's but still:

Mike DiBiase (his debut fight!) 230
Howard King 200
Alejandro Lavorante 211
Pete Rademacher (!) 192
Buddy Turman 187
Willi Besmanoff 198
Sterling Davis (his debut fight!) 192
Bob ALbright 225
James Parker 211
George Parmentier (6'6" ) 233

And many more guys at or around 200 pounds. Pretty impressive, I'd say.

 

I'm not trying to bring down Rocky, I have included him in my list of elite heavyweight punchers.
This despite the fact that neither
Lastarza
Cockell
Charles
Moore

Said he was the hardest puncher they fought,they named others.

"Parker"

Went the distance with Valdes. He was KO'd by Moore.

Valdes does have a strong record of meeting good men, and beating quite a few of them. But he lost twice to Moore, and also to Johnson and Satterfield, and twice to Baker. Moore KO'd Johnson, Satterfield, and Baker. Who was rated and when and if not or in what division doesn't explain how Moore was able to KO men that Valdes lost to.

Valdes was not rated in August, 1959, when he fought Liston, but I don't think this is critical. Valdes was on top a long time and he is a good scalp for Liston, at least on par with Williams, and I judge a better scalp than DeJohn.[/QUOTE]
Valdes was Ring ranked number ONE after beating Neuhaus in November 1953 and he did not lose that ranking until Moore beat him in May 1955.

I don't give a **** about Parker,I''m telling you Valdes was ranked number ONE after beating Neuhaus in November 1953 and kept that ranking until Moore beat him in May the following year.

 

So Durelle is on par with Moore as a puncher?

 

Valdes was Ring ranked number ONE after beating Neuhaus in November 1953 and he did not lose that ranking until Moore beat him in May 1955.

I don't give a **** about Parker,I''m telling you Valdes was ranked number ONE after beating Neuhaus in November 1953 and kept that ranking until Moore beat him in May the following year.[/QUOTE]

"I don't give a ___ about Parker."

You listed him.

"I'm telling you Valdes was ranked number ONE after beating Neuhaus in November 1953 and kept that ranking until Moore beat him the following year."

If you are talking about The Ring ratings, he lost the #1 ranking after a poor performance against McBride. Charles replaced him through the two Marciano fights. Valdes regained his ranking in the fall of 1954 after he beat Jackson. He lost his #1 ranking in May of 1955 when he lost to Moore.

What does any of this have to do with Valdes' ranking in August, 1959, when he fought Liston. That is what I posted on.

 

Archie Moore stated Durelle hit him harder than Marciano did.

I said I'm not convinced Moore hit harder than those light heavies I named and I'm not.
Valdes was ranked no6 when he fought Alonzo Johnson and lost ,he then lost to Liston but was he thrown completely out of the top ten in between,as you say?

 

Reading this thread from top to bottom has really been enough for me to change my opinion of Rocky.

I'm gonna favour him to stop Liston. Something I haven't done for a very long time.

I really want to rewatch the Rocky fights, when I get chance.

 

Power is irrelevant if you can't make it translate in the ring. I wouldn't rate anybody Liston fought as more effective punchers than Walcott except maybe Patterson who he took out before he could land anything. Williams and DeJohn couldn't translate their supposed power into tangible results in the ring.

 

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U don’t have to be the hardest hitter they faced to be a dangerous puncher. Ali was a dangerous puncher and didn’t hit particularly hard. U can use angles and counters to increase ur dangerousness. I get it Archie didn’t hit as hard as Shavers or Wilder. But he was more affective over the course of his career. Ali for example was a much more dangerous man then Shavers despite not punching as hard (that’s why I wanted ur definition of “elite puncher” as it may not be the same as mine). My point was Archie was an elite puncher at Hw because of how talented he was mixed w his punching power. There is video I posted of him launching Davidson a 210 pound prime up and comer. He wasn’t a lite hitter in the division. I argue for Ali as well in this category as he has a long list of amazing KOs and is often not listed as a good puncher. To me it makes no sense but to each their own. I don’t overtly give praise to the likes of Shavers or Wilder. I could care less how strong they were. I’m more results oriented. So I’ll stick to my statement. Moore is a better win then Williams, Shavers, Galento or Wilder could ever be.