The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

Well wrong on many fronts…where to start.
Floyd Patterson and his team wanted nothing to do w Marciano…so much so they waited to move him up to HW only after Marciano retired.
The one of two all time great still around for Rocky was old Joe Louis and he beat him into retirement.
Archie Moore although not prime of body was prime of career at 38. He was on a long won streak from 1949 of 51-2 revenging his two losses and hadn’t lost in four years prior to meeting Marciano. How damn good must one be when they meet? I also put Moore in the ATG category at both HW and elsewhere. His record deserves the praise.
Not many he champs go 7-0 in title fights w 6 KOs. I do wonder how long he could have continued being on the down slide. There were no more great challenges for him so he retired wisely

 

Total crap re: Patterson, scared of Marciano but fights Liston twice? Sure. Moore, Walcott, Charles, and Louis were all past it irrefutably. When you cosnider Layne and LaStarza, it's debatable how good they were, and Marciano retired before he fought a great fighter in his prime. This is all facts. No other purported top 10 fighter has such a thin resume unless you count Jack Dempsey. Evander Holyfield had 6 title fights before he even became a heavyweight and was 6-0 with 5 KOs, to say 7-0 is some great standard especially with three rematches in there is hard for me to accept

 

Patterson was no scared but his management sure was.

Cus D'Amato had a healthy terror of big hard punchers like Liston. Furthermore it has been stated that Cus didnt move Patterson into HW until Rocky was gone.

But my boy Floyd was brave and was afraid of nobody, thus he ditched his management and faced Liston ... and of course got demolished.

I can imagine Cus making a facepalm...

 

Nothing to do with being scared. The opportunity presented itself that a LH contender got to fight the LH champion for the HW title. That’s what created the move to HW.

Patterson was the top light heavyweight contender when Rocky was Hw champion. They never could have met. Only once Rocky retired leaving LH champ Archie Moore as the top HW did they consider Floyd moving up to heavyweight…and since the opponent Floyd would face in the vacant heavyweight championship fight was the light heavyweight champion it made sense fighting the LH champ to become HW champion. A deal that suited.

Once champion, like any champion, you defend the title. Floyd was an honourable champion. He was going to do his duty. He won his title back after losing it to Ingo. Was bound to rematch clauses with Ingo and dutifully fulfilled that. Floyd was then required to fight Liston twice after that. So he did.

 

Patterson’s camp didn’t want him to fight Liston either that’s why they avoided him forever. Patterson was a brave man. I don’t think he cared about going out on his shield. But I specifically said his camp. They wanted no part of Marciano because they knew he would lose.
Marciano average age of opponents was no older or younger then most for his time. It’s actually way younger than men today, Layne was a damn good contender w wins over Walcott Satterfield and Thompson and more when they met. He was never the same after fighting Rocky. I don’t put much stock in Lastarza other than he was a crafty fellow who gained the system. No bum better than plenty of people who fought for the title but nothing special. Matthews was prime age as was Don but mediocre at best. Archie Moore I broke down his record for u and how he was fighting. To say he was all of a sudden useless when he beat in just the year before!!! Nino, Maxim, Harold Johnson Bobo Olson and Bert Whitehurst is nothing but made up nonsense by haters looking for excuses to bring the man down.
Charles was also only 32 and coming off two excellent wins and close fights w Johnson and Nino. Johnson an ATG could have gone either way it was close
Walcott was literally the champion.

 

Our current undisputed champion, is 37 years old, and was giving up a lot of weight in his heavyweight title fights.

But of course Marciano only fought small old men.

 

They weren't especially old though with Louis 37 and Moore/Walcott at 38. Its not like they were mid-40s. You also have to look at their form going into the fights. Walcott had recently kayoed a prime/near prime Charles and Moore had beaten Harold Johnson.

Given what Johnson/Charles accomplished in their career and how they look on film I don't see how you can dismiss those wins.

Moore and to a lesser extent Walcott were the only old men beating the young contenders. And Moore wasn't able to win the title. I agree Louis was shot but I think Moore/Walcott were still not far off prime form despite their age.

 

Ok thanks for clarifying lol.

 

Of course you can't.

Lol.

Lmao even.

I actually could see Walcott losing to Tubbs. I could see Walcott losing to Norton or potentially even Cooney. Not saying they'd win easily, but those are actually close fights on paper and I wouldn't bet a single cent on Walcott.

Moore could end up losing to Bruno or Berbick.

 

Obviously Walcott, Charles, Moore, etc had more experience and beat more notable fighters than some of Holmes/Tyson's opponents. The trade off is that in order to be "more proven" with a better resume, it requires that a boxer have a longer career and thus they often become shopworn.

So Tyson and Holmes' opposition is impressive in different ways. Specifically, due to them beating multiple young, prime, undefeated, athletic big men who didn't have as much wear and tear as the majority of Rocky's best opponents. The fact you're trying to turn that into a negative thing is hilarious.

 

unthinkable. Can you really see that? Moore that Marciano fought pounded Baker a man at least as well equipped as Bruno or Berbick.

The Tubbs I’m talking about is the Tubbs Tyson got to fight. His trainer walked out on him the week of the fight saying Tubbs was in no condition to fight! Can you imagine how bad he must have been?

potentially Cooney? Gerry never beat a live contender . That’s on record. Going against Larry he had but one round of action in a year and a half. What kind of preparation is that?

The Norton Larry beat could not satisfactorily beat Jimmy Young. But he’s going to beat a live Walcott?

 

Bruno and Berbick were not only bigger and hit harder than Baker, they were both more accomplished than Baker. They both became champions, had better careers, and better wins.

Also, weren't you the one saying "you're only as good as your last fight"...? Baker LOST his previous match before he fought Moore...!

Tubbs was always a fat underachiever. It doesn't change the fact his speed, skill, footwork, and head movement could give Walcott, Charles, or Moore trouble. Not to mention his height and reach. They struggled with men who weren't remotely as skilled as Tubbs such as Rex Layne.

Cooney hit harder than anyone Rocky's opponents faced. He was also very tall and had decent skill. He could potentially upset any of them.

Norton did satisfactorily beat Jimmy Young. You didn't watch the fight...? Or are you simply ignoring verdicts that you don't agree with...? Norton also beat Ali, but you think him beating Walcott or Charles is unthinkable...?

 

Tubbs brought none of that into the ring with Tyson because his trainer had been right to remark Tubbs was in “no condition to fight”. He flopped just like the trainer knew he would and on that performance would flop against any elite fighter prepared to fight.

Walcott iced guys as tall as Cooney. Hoff. Shkor. It’s really nothing Walcott had not seen before. and Cooney having not fought more than one round in one and a half years is about as disadvantaged as Liston was going up against Ali the first time.

There has been a lot of dispute about Young vs Norton.

Ken wasn’t beating Ali around the time he fought Larry was he? He couldn’t really get past Jimmy Young by then.

 

You don't know that.

Holmes praised Cooney as one of his best opponens.

But he won.

Norton beating Charles, Walcott, or Moore wouldn't be shocking or insane to think about. He was an excellent boxer. His problem were the big sluggers, not small old technicians.

Well the 76 fight with Ali was considered a robbery and even Ali himself admitted he lost. So, yeah, I'd say the Norton Holmes beat was pretty close to the same form, skill, and ability as the Norton who arguably beat Ali. Norton was on a pretty good win streak destroying Bobbick in 1 round, then Zanon, then Young. Holmes vs Norton was a classic and ranked the 10th best fight of all time by Monte Cox.

If Norton can give a Hall of Famer like Holmes one of his toughest fights, a fight that is highly regarded by many who watches it, then Norton can at the very least give ancient versions of Charles, Walcott, or Moore trouble if not potentially beat them. If this is controversial to you, it's because you overrate Rocky. I'm sure if we did a poll plenty would agree with me.

 

I doubt Cooney hit any harder than men like Elmer Ray, Sheppard, Joe Louis, Satterfield etc. if Cooney did hit harder it’s negligible at best. I don’t think Berbick was not as good as Baker. Bruno was a good win but he’s prob no better than Layne as far as accomplishments go.
Norton and Young was an extremely close fight by all accounts I’ve read (I’ve never seen it just stating that many thought it could have went either way).