The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

Everyone’s shopworn after losing to Marciano apparently. I mean not losing a fight in four years only facing elite competition in Moore means nothing. Being the Hw champion means nothing. Winning ur last two fights by KO being only 32 means nothing. Winning 8 fights in a row on a comeback means nothing. I would agree w u people if they had lost their last two or something but u guys r being way to nuts w it

 

I'd say this qualifies as one hell of a compliment:

Holmes: “I’ll tell you another thing: If Gerry Cooney would have fought me six months or a year later he would have been heavyweight champion of the world and all those critics out there would have been saying, ‘Oh, man he’s the greatest, he’s the greatest.’ But they pushed him when he was not really ready to be pushed.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndic...cooney-on-friday-night-at-the-fights.amp.html

 

They were shopworn BEFORE they lost to Rocky.

Shopworn doesn't mean you can't win any fights at all and get beat up every time. It simply means your body has lots of wear and tear/mileage from a long career which is a FACT. Charles, Walcott, Moore, and Louis weren't spring chickens lol.

There is a difference between "shopworn" and "washed up". A washed up fighter can no longer win any big fights and has journeyman status.

 

There are old crafty fighters whom r successful even in old age. Just as old fighters consistently beat young ones young ones also upend the older ones. The cream rises to the top. By ur standards Holmes beat zero hall of fame worthy fighters when they weren’t shop worn or washed. He beat zero contenders worth a damn. But he did what he had to do against bad competition. I don’t knock him for it. I only use ur standards to others which no one can meet. No one thinks Charles or Walcott were prime although both put on all time performances the night they faced Marciano: they weren’t washed looking in the slightest just as Norton woke up for a title fight so did they. Rocky deserves his credit w out being belittler. Also if Charles and Walcott can go 15 w Louis and Marciano I think they’d manage against Holmes

 

OK let's sum up this thread and put it to bed:

All of Rocky Marciano's opponents sucked then, now, and forever.
Any HW champ since the late 1800's could have wiped the canvas with Marciano.
Any boxer that Mike Tyson, or Larry Holmes, or Lennox Lewis fought would have KO'd any
Marciano opponent.
Rocky Marciano was most likely a transvestite.
No opponent Marciano beat would defeat Naoya Inoue.
Rocky Marciano was a mob hitman during the day.
Rocky Marciano couldn't carry Deontay Wilder's jockstrap.

/thread.

 

Rocky's greatness transcends a mere 30 pages.

 

Your ability to misconstrue what someone says over and over is nothing short of remarkable.

I even clarified in my last post the difference between shopworn and washed up, get you're still getting upset and confusing the two.

Holmes beat Witherspoon, Weaver, and Mercer in their primes. None of them were shopworn at the time Holmes beat them, and they are all arguably hall of fame worthy.

The Charles and Walcott Rocky faced were old and more shopworn than they were when they went 15 with Louis. Charles beat an ancient Louis by the way, not sure why you were trying to be slick. Going 15 with a prime Holmes is significantly more difficult than going 15 with an old Louis.

Don't worry, those Rocky defensive stats are coming once my laptop charges.

 

Neither me, nor Mcvey remotely suggested any of this.

Rocky fans are even more emotional than Pacquiao fans. It's a cult. You can't bring up a single criticism of his resume without it becoming a 50 page war. Even the most die hard Tyson and Floyd fans can usually have productive and interesting conversations with people who disagree.

 

can I see that list of 50 boxers who beat Joe Louis that Rocky beat?

He was 228, 229 pounds when he beat Smith and Page in 1985, and those were his only wins over relevant fighters up to his fight with Tyson. He was 10 pounds heavier for Tyson, his trainer walked out on him, he couldn't even get in shape for a 50 grand bonus.

The case I am making is that Walcott, Charles and Moore beat all the same guys Tyson and Larry did in title fights.

Fighters of the month don’t tend to be shopworn.

Was Ali “shopworn” against George Foreman? Because it seems to me Ali was in the same place with his career as Charles was against Marciano.

This content is protected

Does this look like a shop worn fighter???

 

Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore are great names and great looking, but the first two were about 38 years old with Rock. The same as Holmes and Tyson and they were more defeated, but Tyson's victory was more dominant - but today it is not so appreciated.
Charles and Moore are great LHWs like Michaels Spinks but they were older and more broken and Tyson's victory over Spinks was more dominant but today it is not as historically valued. PR is very important.
Layne, La Starza, Cockwell are solid boxers but. it is difficult to count them among the outstanding ones. Mathhews was actually a very good MW/LHW without much success in HW.
We focus too much on side threads, which is why the topic is so extensive. Rocky was a great champion but sportingly he is behind Holmes, Tyson, Ali, Holy, Louis, Liston and several other champions

 

Practically every decent fighter from the 70's, 80's, and 90's who was ranked in the top 10 in those decades, along with the belt holders. From Liston, to Quarry, to Frazier, to Bruno, to Holmes, to Lewis, etc.

This still isn't evidence Tubbs couldn't beat any decent fighter. It's still just your opinion.

Just like I could say the Cokkell or Savold Rocky beat couldn't beat any elite fighters and I'm sure quite a few people would agree.

And I disagree. Strongly.

Ali of the Leon Spinx fights would be a much better comparison to the Charles who fought Rocky.

That isn't the Charles who fought Rocky.

What do you think the word "shopworn" means, in your own words...?

 

Yes it is. This was Charles the ex champion fighting toward another crack at the title. Marciano the champion is ringside. He looks concerned at how good Charles is.

old George Forenan was a decent contender in the 1990s and he was much older than Joe Louis. Grandfatherly Larry Holmes was a decent contender, also much older than Louis. Joe Bugner…he fought his way back into the ratings in the mid 1980s. In the 1970s there were men like Evangelista, Richard Dunn, chuck wepner Bobick all classed as title worthy. Do they beat old Joe Louis?

I think this is your trouble. You believe Charles was where Ali was against Leon Spinks when he fought Marciano? But this does not add up.

You don’t even realise Charles was the age of Zaire Ali who beat Foreman when he fought Marciano! And like ex champ Ali, who was coming off excellent wins over Norton and Frazier, Muhammad was demonstrating that as ex champion he was the most outstanding contender of that year…much like Charles was, the ex champion, was when Ring magazine awarded him fighter of the month ahead of his challenge to Marciano.

The problem you have is you believe in the often repeated folk lore that never stood up in the first place.

Charles, Walcott and Moore were still winning major fights. That’s the truth. Even Joe Louis to a lesser extent could and was still winning major fights at that time…but the comparison to Louis championship years rightly overshadows what he was still capable of. Somehow this was incorrectly attributed to Walcott Charles and Moore as well, even though they were still performing brilliantly.

 

Those guys aged gracefully. They would put the Beterbiev and Bivols to sleep.

 

Your inability to understand simple concepts like an old fighter can still be a quality win is astounding.
I gave u several good fighters Charles went the distance with. He went 15 w a prime Marciano and u think he can’t last with Holmes. Charles is another fighter vastly underrated here.
I have zero interest in hearing anything u have to say about punch stats. U don’t do this for a living u don’t know what system they use to qualify a punch and ur so damn biased ur opinion means zilch. I have eyes and can break down film myself. U can’t even see for urself simple concepts.