Oleksandr Usyk vs. Joe Louis

[QUOTE="That's interesting to me - especially when someone as great as Conn has been used as the example to diminish Louis and that we will never see Usyk in with someone that great.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with this. I have a lot of respect for Conn and think he's underrated as an ATG but I do believe that Mairis Briedis was a better fighter H2H and roughly as great as Conn give or take. Briedis is a bad, bad man, he was a monster in his prime and wins over Huck, Glowacki, Dorticos, Perez, and Mikaeljan aren't anything to scoff at and he gave both Usyk and Opetaia (arguably deserved the nod the first time against Jai) the hardest fights of their careers. Conn has his wins over Young Corbett III, Vince Dundee, Teddy Yarosz, Fritzie Zivic and Babe Risko as well as giving Louis his toughest fight at his peak (or closest to it). They're pretty close I think in terms of each man's dominance within their eras and their historical rankings in the division they each fought in. I'm not averse to the idea that Conn is greater than Briedis though but I think it's close.

 

Plus Bredis being the bigger man

 

That's just it - For the most part, Conn isn't an underrated ATG. He's regularly found in the Top-40 and Top-30 of ATG listings.

That said, I look forward to the historians and scribes placing Briedis ahead of him in due course.


EDIT: Just to be clear - The context in which I am referring to 'greatness', is P4P - and in terms of P4P greatness, I rate Conn significantly higher than Briedis.

But your point is well taken, nonetheless.

 

The idea that Louis was a "small" Man is absurd, if Bivol would move up he would get butchered vs ranked comp.

Louis would be a Top 3 Heavy right now, Bivol is not even in the same zip code.

Lets put Usyk in to context, lets just use fighters from the 80's/90's not the 30's for arguments sake.

Prime Tyson/Bowe/Lewis would beat the Bodybuilder like a rented Mule, guaranteed flat out KO.

Prime Tyson/Bowe/Lewis would murder Wilder, guaranteed flat out KO.

Prime Tyson/Bowe/Lewis would maul Fury like a red headed Step child, none of the three would let him off the hook when he goes down and down he goes a lot even vs zero skill 0-0 MMA fighters.................best case he looses a ugly running for his life loop sided decision vs one out of the three but two still will stop him.

Prime Tyson/Bowe/Lewis and Louis would be arrested for Man slaughter vs the MMA guy.

 

If Louis competed in today's heavyweight era he would be small lol he would be around the size of most cruiserweights. Btw Usyk would beat all the guys Tyson, Bowe and Lewis fought as well so I don't really see your point that's part of what being an ATG means, you would be great in any era regardless of the competition.

 

None of that disputes that prime Conn was an excellent fighter and an excellent win for Louis that in no way diminishes his chances against fighters of a similar style, which for all i know, Conn might have been the best iteration of said style.

 

The idea that a 6'1 200lbs man would be small for a heavyweight today is absurd?

 

Just imo, the Conn “Trump” card has been well overweighted and over played as a negative against Louis.

First, some perspective which is necessary, at least in my opinion.

The first Conn fight was Louis 51st pro fight. It was also his 18th defence of the title. Finally, as far these particular numbers go, as at June 1941, it was Joe’s 6th fight and 6th defence of the title for the year.

The sheer greater number of fights and frequency in scheduling on their own invite greater probability of hiccups, quality of opposition notwithstanding.

The Conn certainly was not Joe’s best performance - but here it is, dusted off and presented yet again - as overstated “evidence” that, in fact, defies the material “evidence”and highly successful career Joe actually had otherwise.

Therefore, the so called “evidence” contained in the Conn fight, just the one fight is/was proven to be somewhat illogical and in defiance of the balance of many other Louis performances.

Given how much weight some put in that fight - if you didn’t know better, it might lead you to think Louis actually lost. Joe won and he won that much more easily second time around - though, that’s not to ignore any arguable deteriorations in Conn’s game.

There were also some pros to Conn’s smaller size - for one example, Billy being a literally, physically smaller target.

Personally, I don’t see such a strong correlate between Conn and Usyk.

As to the SHW sized fighters Louis defeated not being as skilled as their similarly sized counterparts of today - perhaps a fair opinion in some cases.

However, Louis didn’t just beat/decision his SHWs - he destroyed them - plenty of wiggle room for Joe in the face of better skilled big men.

I say this in all objectivity snd without any denigration of Usyk - who is a great fighter in my book - and not least for the intangibles he brings to the table - intangibles that Louis also held in abundance over a very long and very busy career.

 

Newsflash , back then they were boiled down and could go 15 rounds 4 times a month, now they fight once a year at a sloths pace.

Louis was closer to 6'2 and would easily carry today 220-225 pounds and even at 210 would send the MMA guy Fury almost lost to head into the cheap seats.

 

Dude. I've forgotten more about the sport than you and a few others on this topic will ever know.
For you to write YDKSAB is more a reflection of what you know than mine.
If you truly had one iota of humility you'd ask why I think that as opposed to your arrogant assumptions .
But only a fool refuses to see a different point of view, . And like all fools a different point of view scares you because it shows your inadequacy
and your very basic knowledge of the sport.
And, what you know will always be basic because of that.
Just a superficial knowledge that makes you think you know it all and have all the answers...
Like any fool......

 

Pot calling the kettle black you refuse to see any point that goes against you viewpoints and then point at others doing the same thing because they disagreed with you, maybe took at look at yourself first before yapping

 

Bivol hasn't moved up so we can't say how he would do. But I would expect him to beat many top heavyweights of Louis era like Carnera, Baer, Braddock, Nova, etc. We have plenty of film of Bivol and I would certainly think based on available evidence he would have to be favored over these guys given his skill advantage.

What would lead you to think Baer, Braddock would have a shot of beating Bivol based on available evidence?

 

That I agree with. You have indeed forgotten a huge amount.

Maybe you have become blind and only remember how Baer fought. Memory can play some funny tricks.

I've got two eyes and have seen a lot of Baer fights. Max is a classic fighter from Ugg's Caveman Boxing School.

Edit:

Let us admire Baer's sublime combination punching:

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as compared to this idiot who doesn't have a clue, according to "Flashy1234" or whatever:

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This is an intellectual practice that confuses me on this board. Adding unfalsifiable stats to old fighters, pretend like they're the same fighters, and then saying they'd steamroll everyone.

If Louis had exactly the same physical attributes he had as a 200lbs man, but was actually a 225lbs man yes he'd have an easier time adjusting. But at this point we've stopped talking about Joe Louis, as we have absolutely no idea what a 225lbs Louis looks like as that fighter never existed. Nor do we even know he'd weigh that much, that's a number that's seemingly been plucked out of the air, an extra 10-12% of mass.

 

While in principle I agree but how come the new flavor of the month Usyk with a handful of fights on his ledger can gain 20 pounds to be a Heavyweight but Louis can't ?

One more time. Joe louis was not a small man, Marciano looked like a dwarf next to him.

And for the last time, Usyk just got a narrow points win over a guy who in his last fight was almost stopped and went life and death with a zero skill 0-0 , I repeat, a 0-0 Pro record, MMA Pallooka who got laid out instantly in his very next fight by the very first right hand landed.