The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

I can’t “imagine” that, but I can vividly remember Trevor Berbick losing to ST Gordon and Larry Holmes losing to Michael Spinks.

 

It would take Lastarza a week to wipe the cocain residue off of him.
Lastarza was a better boxer than all those men. He just lacked the physical tools that some of those guys had.
Also those guys aren’t better than
Charles
Louis
Baker
Henry
Marciano all in 51.

 

Since the thread is the quality of Marciano's opponents and neither he ,or Lastarza for that matter fought either Baker or Henry, I fail the see the relevance of including their names?

 

He named random ranked 82 guys I named random ranked 81 guys. He was making a poor attempt at insulting the ranked people. It’s highly relevant to c Lastarza peers, Don’t look too much into it. They wouldn’t beat Walcott, Archie, Charles Layne or Louis either.

 

How exactly did he impress," the people" since he did not have a single fight in 49?
I'm asking you what justification there was for Savold to be ranked no3 in 48 and no2 in 1949 and you haven't answered my questions?

Let me make this clearer for you.
WHAT HAD HE DONE IN THE RING TO MERIT SUCH A RANKING?
Three of you are making very free with my name with the stooge Choc Ice applauding your every move,are you going to answer or not?

 

Everyone who has researched the 50's and is honest knows Lastarza was a protected fighter who avoided the best of his division by sitting on his arse and plying a close decision against Marciano years previously into a title fight,which he did not deserve.He himself confirmed this in a Ring interview,the list of dangerous contenders he avoided is legion,he was a decent defensive boxer, without power who 3 fights before he challenged for the title was floored and outpointed by light heavyweight journeyman Rocky Jones.

 

He was protected. He didn’t have the power to be a major force in the hw division. But he was good enough to go more rounds w Marciano then Walcott, Charles, Moore Louis and Layne did. Man could box I’ll give him that but he lacked all the physical attributes needed to be a force. He’s one of the few people I’ll agree with the size queens with and say he wouldn’t fight HW today. He would be a dehydrated super middle. As would prob Matthews who at least had some power at HW.

 

"This was a very odd-looking match as the highly favoured Berbick rarely threw a punch and mostly advanced with his arms wrapped around his head. Berbick later made claims that he was ill, but many suspected he was doped somehow."
Do you think Lastarza would beat Spinks?
He would have his hands full with Gordon!
Lastarza lost to
Cockell
Mederos
Norkus
Jones
Bucceroni
Zernitz
Ratliffe
Lastarza's claims to fame are .
Splitting a pair with Bucceroni .
A split dec over Layne.
A win over Brion.

 

Are you going to answer this?

Also Mcvey is obsessed over whether men r rated or not unless it’s someone he doesn’t like.
Who don't I like?

 

As to Lastarza going more rounds with Marciano than Walcott did in their 2nd fight .

Marciano vs Walcott II was a brief and uneventful affair. For just over two minutes of the first round, the boxers milled about, Marciano lunging behind wild punches and forcing Walcott to sidestep or retreat, the challenger clutching and grabbing as Rocky tried to get to him. Few clean punches had connected when a retreating Jersey Joe set, feinted, and threw a jab to set up a right hand. But before Walcott could follow through with the right, Marciano countered with a wide left hook and then leaped in behind it with a right uppercut that sent the off-balance Walcott sprawling on his back, his feet flying high above him.

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Walcott and his handlers after the stoppage.
The challenger pulled himself up to a sitting position, one hand on the ropes, apparently unhurt. He then chose to sit there, like a man trying to decide if he wants to get out of bed or not, and let the referee count him out. Once the fatal ten was reached, Walcott finally hoisted himself to his feet and promptly assumed the demeanour suitable for a victim of injustice, gesturing and expressing disbelief, strenuously arguing that he was the victim of a fast count, though this was clearly not the case.

Instead of a fast count, Walcott was the victim of having been put right back into the ring, before his nerve and fighting spirit could restore themselves, with the same man who had rendered him unconscious with a single vicious blow in Philadelphia. Something more than Arnold Cream’s world title had been separated from him that night. Perhaps in those empty seconds when he sat gazing at nothing as the referee counted off the final moments of the bout, he was contemplating the scattered shards of his broken confidence, still unmended months after that crushing right hand, and now completely shattered. Walcott never fought again.

— Michael Carbert


He Quit!
The fact that Lastarza and Cockell got title shots on the back of spurious ratings just emphasises how weak the division was in the early50's.
So weak you had to try and sneak in 3 men who were unraked in that decade as proof it was deep!
"Why am I even fighting this guy?" Marciano before the Cockell fight.

 

Ur selective outrage is amusing. Show me ur anger at men like Stander and Evangelista getting shots in the so called strongest decade in boxing history (it is imo). Fighters often take easy ones for many reasons. La starza wasn’t considered an easy one but he was in hindsight. Don was an easy one before meeting Archie. Go down the list to Louis bum of the month club. If we looked at every title contender ever we’d be disappointed in half. Archie was arguably the best fighter at hw to never win a belt and I contest that often on this site. Not because I’m a Marciano fan but because I’m a massive Archie Moore fan. He also beat imo the greatest fighter to ever lace em up in Ezzard Charles twice. Marciano’s record is not the best ever at hw. I have him at 4-5 at HW and I can see an argument for beyond that. But ur insistence that u can’t even give him credit for one damn win is absurd…absurd hatred. There is not one win that u have not leveled some criticism against. Not a one. How am I supposed to argue with that?
By the way I’d bet a lot of money on Don to beat Stander and Evangelista

 

My anger,as you call it is not directed at any fighters it is directed at posters like you, hero worshippers,who,every time an even slightly negative remark is made about Marciano or one of his opponents come galloping out shouting "Rocky is being attacked ,form the wagons into a circle".
If you could bring yourselves into being even slightly objective and drop such absurd comments as he had a clever defence, and continuously hyping up fighters I know to be at best 2nd raters , you might get less grief from others.
I have frequently criticized Frazier for defending against 2 third raters,he demeaned the title and cheapened his legacy.
Ali took the Evangelista fight in between defending against his best challengers and he was past his best not bang in his ****ing prime!
Ive have many ,many times stated that in my view Marciano was a great fighter and a great champion.so don't you, in your ignorance say I am a hater!
And don't you talk to me about Don Cockell,I met him and talked to him about the Marciano fight,he was a lovely man ,but never a world class heavyweight.

Stander and Evangelista would be the top opponents Cockell beat!
If he could manage it!
Third rater Lave ko'd him 2nd rater Slade ko'd him ,and middleweight Turpin ko'd him.
Your problem is you throw out names in an attempt to win arguments,but you take no account of where those names were in their careers!
Louis was shot, Walcott and Charles were past their best Moore was an old man.Mathews a hype job,Lastarza would not be ranked in a stronger era and his credentials are so slender they are practically non existent.
Cockell was a fat Eurolevel lhvy,Savold a washed up 35 years old has been.
Stating this is not hatred it is FACT!

 

Everything u just said is wrong. I refuse ti break down the defense again for a millionth time. U just don’t understand the sport enough to understand when a man doesn’t get hit w punches far below average he might just be good at defense. U also don’t take the word of opponents or HOF cornermen on the matter. There is no getting through to u there.
Archie Moore was old (not as old as u think he was) but he was fighting at his best or damn close to it. Something ur hating ways can’t bring ur self to admit.
Lastarza had just as many qualifications to be there as many people. I don’t look to highly on him as a hw. He was better then Stander or Grant or many others I can name here.
Matthews was a hype job in ur head. It’s an odd thing for someone to attack a fighter that was respected in his own time by his peers. Layne fought both Rocky and Matthews and he thought Matthews would win. He was a better fighter than given credit for. Had good style was fast and had a decent right hand. Had some good wins on his ledger that a hype job just does not have. is it a great hw win? No but was it a good win over a prime fighter w a nice record? yes.
U never give Rocky credit for Layne. Another name u bad mouth frequently. Beat two champions, beat Satterfield, Brion, Thompson. Had sd losses w Baker and Lastarza so he was competitive even in losses and honestly his career ended after losing to Marciano.
I don’t hype fighters that don’t have an argument. I’ve never once hyped Savold. Who was nothing but a second rated his whole career and a stepping stone.
I’ve never hyped Don who was a clever little boxer who happened to have the right style to neutralize Matthews which got him where he wanted to be. He also happened to hit Lastarza on the way down (all those Lastarza losses came after losing to Marciano and becoming washed).
Nobody hypes Charles n Walcott beyond what they were. They looked in shape and ready to go for title fights. They weren’t prime but they looked to be good and game.
Louis was obviously old but u can’t even admit he was on a win streak against ok competition. U try to belittle the men he beat to try and bring down Marciano’s accomplishment of beating him. Louis was the favorite to win so experts thought Louis was game enough at the time. Despite not being anywhere near prime.

 

I boxed for nearly 2 decades,Ive been collecting fight films since the middle 60's,Ive nearly200 books on the subject and regularly attend fights,But according to you Professor, I don't understand the sport.
You need to read up on Mathews,because you know **** all about him!
Prefight Mathews v Marciano
"Nobody knows if Mathews can really fight." NYTimes.
" Some questioned whether, the Kid belonged in the same ring with Marciano" " he wasn't a true heavyweight and hadn't faced anyone who punched as hard as Marciano".
The sportswriter WC Heinz warned Hurley he was sending an armoured jeep against a tank."
"At the weigh in the day of the fight,Mathews was just 179lbs four pounds over the minimum for a heavyweight . "
"It turned out that the real reason Hurley had limited Mathews workouts was because he was secretly fattening his fighter on mashed potatoes and custard pies.For insurance he slipped lead weights into Mathews shoes for the weigh in." Rocky Marciano.Unbeaten Mike Stanton.
" You have proven you are a failure." Hurley to Mathews.
" I made sure he didn't fight any great fighters,I picked em mostly for their styles.Guys that had styles just right for Mathews. I always picked fighters who wanted really wanted to get in there and fight and lick my fellow,and while they were doing this my guy was counterpunching and looking great."The Rock Of His Times" Russell Sullivan.
"Harry Kid Mathews was a paper tiger,he had an enviable record77 wins , 7 draws and 3 losses
.But he was from SeattleWashington and had fought almost exclusively on the West Coast.
He had had only one bout in NY,when he won a decision over Irish Bob Murphy in 51.
A few weeks before the fight,the word in the fight crowd was that Hurley had nurtured Mathews with a steady diet of stiffs,,and that Marciano would take him apart." Rocky Marciano Everett Skehan.
But of course these opinions are all wrong,because you know better.


Lastarza lost to Jones and Bucceroni before he challenged for the title.