The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

No! No! No!
Marshall was a month off 37,and washed up, having his next to last fight and he was a light heavy.His next fight he was kod by middleweight Bobo Olson.
Charles shouldnt have been anywhere near a ring he was FINISHED .THEY WERE NOT GOOD FIGHTERS
Nardico was a light heavyweight not good enough to beat the best in his division.
You are in cloud cuckoo land!
Paper Tigers like Mathews,rely on astute matchmaking a manager who knows when to put his meal ticket in with a former name ,its called TIMING. Mathews never beat a prime good heavyweight who was on top of his game,his record is smoke and mirrors and hopefully one day you will come to realise it!
But by then I shall probably have answered the final bell myself!

 

The ridiculous demands u make upon contenders only exist in fantasy land. There is no one that lives to expectations. I’d like a list of 20 individuals whom u think fit ur own criteria. I look forward to micro analyzing their careers with a fine tooth comb and find any negative article ever written of them. It’s an easy game. Please don’t respond unless u have ur all time list of HW contenders. I want to know what u think is the gold standard otherwise this debate is pointless. I don’t think the fighters u want exist
Edit don’t even give me the gold standard I want what u think r just normal good scalps on a resume. Give me 20. Not even the top tier just mid level guys that were good.

 

Butt burnt over MIddleweight Bernie Reynolds ?
So you should be Professor ! I'll give you good scalps and they wont' be dead men walking like Charles,or washed up having their swan song fights like Muscato, Savold, and Marshall.
You don't want to know what I think,you want to tell me what I think, and why I think it!
I was watching Super 8mm film of these guys when you were still in your Dad's ball bag.
I'll give you 20 names , but not till next week, I have a busy social life weekends. It's fun and I can recommend it!

 

That’s splitting hairs. Don against Slade was the reigning British light heavyweight champion at that time and was weighing less than 180. He was 174 against Turpin. Don put on 20lb and won his next 10 fights as a heavyweight. Jimmy Ellis did the same thing. Both Don and Ellis fought for the HW title after the same number of HW fights.

 

Nope, Cockell was 181lbs for the fight and got comprehensively beat up!

Slade floored Cockell twice in the first round. After a nearly even second round, Slade sent Cockell down again in the third for a "7" count. In the fourth round, Cockell was dropped twice more and "was now a mere punching bag, " causing the referee to stop the fight. (See Boxing News, December 12, 1951, page 4.)

Slade was never more than a fringe contender and his drubbing of Don just shows where Cockell stands regarding his status as a heavyweight challenger.
Cockell in 1950 weighing 185lbs was also ko'd from a single body punch by nobody Aaron Wilson,both fights were at heavyweight and Don lost to him in the rematch.
Don't try and make this into Cockell just dipping his toes into the water at heavyweight, it won't work!
NB Ellis beat,Quarry,Patterson,Chuvalo,Martin,Bonavena.
Eliis lost to
Ali
Frazier x2
Shavers
Kirkman
Lyle
Bugner
For the2nd Frazier fight,the Kirkman fight,the Bugner fight,and the Lyle fight he was past prime.
He lost at middle to
Mims
Benton
Carter no5
Hank no5

Cockell lost to
Taylor
Goodwin
Spring
Carroll
Barton
Wilson x2
Lave
Slade
All unranked
Spot the difference?

 

Here's a start after just a cursory look .I'm going out to a gig lunchtime.
Johnny Risko.
Loughran x2
Levinsky
Galento
M Baer
Heeney


Bob Pastor.
Bivins
Franklin
Thompsonx2
Lesnevich 42

Earnie Schaff.
Uzcudun
Galento
M Baer
Loughran x2
Stribling
Renault
Risko


Jerry Quarry.
Shavers
Mathis
Patterson
Foster
Lyle
Spencer

Clarence Henry.
Baker
Satterfield
Bivins
Thompson

Joe Baksi.
Mauriello 44
Savold 44 x3
Nova 45

Carl Williams.
Tillis 84
Berbick88
Cooper 87
Ferguson 85
Berbick

Tami Mauriello.
Nova 45
Dudas 45
Oma 44 & 45
Savold 43 & 44

You can have fun, trying to salvage some credibility, [and pride.] picking those names apart.

NB Savold figures prominently because he was just as I described,ie ,a gate keeper.

 

You can’t use champions those r obviously good wins to me. You on the other hand like to argue every which way. There is not one win on this list that matches Archie’s accomplishments. Where to rank Risko w his 46 losses? Didn’t know if he would beat Baer or Chuck Wiggins.
Tony Galento as a win is like bragging about beating up an amateurs
Oma
Spencer
Savold
Dudas
Berbick
Cooper
Williams, Carl (for Christ sake lost to the 9-11 Jerry jones!)
Thompson
None of these wins r note worthy at all. I don’t put them above or below a prime Lastarza win. Some r better than Don C. Well Don has a better record then Foster at hw and that’s saying something. I don’t consider any a good win here. The rest r fine.
I don’t c how these r good wins but Archie and Walcott was to old, Charles was completely washed apparently despite looking good on film before and during the fight (no one on this list is as good as Charles win either). How u can rank Bert Cooper as good win and then not Matthews or Lastarza is telling. The man beat nobody. Literally lost to everyone he faced worth mentioning (as did Oma and Foster)! But Lastarza at least got decent wins over Layne and Bucceroni and Brion. I don’t even consider Lastarza a good win. He’s an ok win. Layne is an excellent win who had better wins than 95 percent of ur list. U r only as good as ur wins in my book. R u gonna tell ten board prime Layne wasn’t a good win compared to Foster or Cooper? For C sake he beat two men on ur list. Satterfield and Thompson. Not sure what ur goal here was but it made ur criticisms of the men Marciano beat even more bizarre.

 

This is fun!!

So all we have to do is a “mcvey “ on these names? This is going to be quite easy. Without relying on technical knowledge we just dismiss any credibility with earlier or later wins?

Lesnavich was just a LH who was beaten by Woodcock (who @mcvey slams for being an opponent of mr Lee Savaloy)

Laughtan couldn’t get past Carnera.

Quarry couldn’t beat a washed up Eddie Machen and got Kayoed by Chuvalo

Jimmy Bivins was so good you named him twice …even though you don’t think he was any good against Joe Louis..which he was because he later got himself ranked beating Wallace.

Quick Tillis destroyed by Bruno, Thomas and witherspoon lost on points in his prime against a semi retired Joe Bugner.

Buster Mathis? Henry Cooper flattened guys Mathis went the distance with. Big Bus (who resembled Big Bill Wilson) never beat anyone with a hot meal in him.

Bob Foster, great light heavyweight, just didn’t have the legs to hold a heavyweight punch on the chin. He was kayoed by powder puff punching heavyweights like Terrell and Ali and was lucky not to get himself killed against Joe Frazier.

 

Sam Langford.
Jeannette
McVey
Smith
Wills

Joe Jeannette.
Langford
McVey
Johnson
Carpentier



Sam McVey.
Langford
Jeannette
Wills
Clark

 

Nope .As I told you before[several times actually ,] its all about TIMING .
It isnt only WHO you beat ,but WHEN you beat them.
I have a rebuttal for every pathetic criticism you come up with.
First of all this has JACK **** to do with Archie Moore.
Look up when Lesnevich was fighting Pastor it was 1942 and and a different Gus to the one Woodcok fought.
Tommy Loughran not Charles Laughton! beat 3 men who held the heavyweight title Braddock,Sharkey ,and Baer. That alone aptly qualifies him without his other wins over heavies.
Quarry beat Patterson,Lyle,Spencer,Foster,Bodell. ALL WERE RANKED WHEN HE BEAT THEM
Quarry was 21 years old having his 21st fight when Machen outsmarted him.

BTW MAC FOSTER NOT BOB FOSTER Donut! Mac Foster BTW was 24-0-0 all by ko and ranked no5!
Dismal fail on your part! You should have known Quarry never fought Bob Foster.
Yes Bivins was so good I named him twice, in different boxers resumes!FFS!
Tillis lost to Williams in84 he was beaten by Bugner 2 years later and by Bruno [I was there,] 3 years later TIMING!
Cooper flattened guys who went the distance with Buster? So F what? He was a bigger puncher than Buster.We are talking about wins here .YOUR CRITERIA NOT MINE ,
PS Cooper and Mathis had only 1 common opponent Dick Wipperman.
Lee Savold is mentioned several times.YES! As he was a gatekeeper he would be!
The crucial difference is I mentioned him when he was in his prime in 42 &43! Not when he was washed up in1950! Now go and get your rectum sown up and come back for some more punishment.lol .

Just realized it was you not Gazelle I was responding to, I wouldn't have bothered if I had known.

 

Woody beat Gus when Gus was world champ! Only time Gus was counted out. The version Woody beat was fighter of the year by Ring Magazine the very next year!

 

Mac Fosters best wins were from an over the hill Williams who lost two of his last three and over the hill Folley which was his last fight and Spencer who lost god knows how many in a row…c how fun this is. Foster best no one of note in prime

 

Foster was unbeaten with 24 kos and ranked no5 that qualifies him as a good win on anybodies resume.
What Spencer did AFTER losing to Quarry is irrelevant ,he was in the UK's Fight Of The Year at the RAH against Leotis Martin,and a great fight is was ,I saw it.
The fact that his lax training habits caught up with him has no bearing on his status when he faced Quarry ,he had recently beaten Terrell,and was ranked no2.

WBA Heavyweight Elimination Tournament (Spencer rated #2 Ring Magazine at the time)
Spencer was knocked down in the 4th and 10th rounds. TIMING!!!

Mathis was 29-1-0 when he fought Quarry, his only loss being to Frazier.

 

29-0 but none of the wins were significant by any of u guys standards. If Harry Matthews wins r useless then no reason why Fosters should count. Harry Matthews was 81-3 when he met Rocky w two of those losses coming while he was in the army on leave to two HOF. He had wins over prime Murphy and Nardico an ok version of Layne old Marshall and Dave Whitlock. Stacks up better than Mac Foster in reality. Will anyone admit it? No. I’m not even knocking Foster. I’m just using ur standards when discussing Marciano opponents. Matthews should be considered an ok win over a prime opponent. Something along the lines of a Foster.

 

Murphy and Nardico were not heavyweights they do not count .Dave Whitlock? Oh Please! Mathews was really a light heavyweight will you admit that?
I gave you the opinions of boxing writers about Mathews wins,not mine, I only recognize about 4 names on his sheet! The opinions of those experts directly contradicts your assertion about how well he was thought of.

Hurley did not want the Marciano fight,he wanted a straight shot at Walcott ,a cash in, as Jones and Rappaport
did with Cooney,but having bleated about being kept out by the IBC he had no option but to take the fight , Norris had him over a barrel.
You should read Ochs trilogy on Hurley to get the real lowdown.
Hurley told Mathews not to run from Marciano, but to get inside,totally against conventional thinking,he said Mathews speed of hand and his countering ability would give him the advantage .
Mathews was instructed not to try and wrestle with Marciano because he would be too strong,but to let Rocky do all the pushing and shoving,and never to back up.
Rd1 Hurley won it ,by easily countering Marciano and cutting his face.
Back in his corner Goldman said to Rocky, we thought he was going to run,next round go out and stay in the middle of the ring

Rd2 Mathews began it okay, then forgot instructions and backed up and was caught.
Hurley was furious and gave him a torrent of abuse on the way back to the dressing room .
Marciano would have overpowered Harry at some point anyway.
Just as he would have beaten Cockell without all those fouls,unless the fight had been fought in the UK , in which case he would have been slung out.