Who beat Tyson Fury, or line will broke again?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by ikrasevic, Nov 3, 2021.


  1. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Who is ready to suffer for Christ (the truth)? Full Member

    7,226
    7,692
    Nov 3, 2021
    It is completely white or black.
    You can retire as a lineal champion like Lennox Lewis and Rocky Marciano (white).
    And you can "retire" like Muhammad Ali (black), like several of them before him.

    Lineal champion is:
    1. the man who beat the man
     
    Rumsfeld likes this.
  2. lordlosh

    lordlosh Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

    7,759
    7,483
    Jun 4, 2014
    Lineal is b.c. gimmick that only Tyson Fury was talking about, as he had nothing else at one point and to con the casuals.
    How the heck Klitschko became Lineal and when exactly??
    If anything that should have been Vitali, as he was winning on the cards clearly against Lewis and was his last fight, as well as Lewis retired when he was forced to fight Vitali again. So how the heck did Wlad become Lineal???
    And even if we somehow accept that Fury was Lineal for beating Klitschko, he should have lost that title the moment he get caught doping and ducked the Klitschko rematch. He wasn't just banned he retired to con the public with his mental health lies. We don't have magic ball to know what would have happened, so why the heck he stayed Lineal when he was banned and was retired? Also the moment you get caught cheating with PEDS you automatically gets stripped of any titles you have. And again he was retired.
    How could when Lewis retired we get new Lineal, but when Fury has popped and retired he still somehow stayed Lineal??? That doesn't make any sense, as you have essentially 2 options.
    Either AJ should have been Lineal for becoming the man when he beat Klitschko to Unify the division and then Parker OR
    Lewis or whatever was the first retired Lineal is still Linear.
    Otherwise Lewis can return to Pro Boxing and he can claim he is the Linear.

    In reality Linear is imaginary belt, that only Frauds talking or crying about.
    Writing while walking the dog from a phone and can't correct typos.
    And don't use the forums on the PC anymore.
     
  3. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Who is ready to suffer for Christ (the truth)? Full Member

    7,226
    7,692
    Nov 3, 2021
    All your questions should be answered here:
    This content is protected

    Not once, but three times in heavyweight history, has a lineal champion retired (Tunney, Marciano, Lewis).
    The one who "retired" and then boxed professionally again, I don't count as retired.
     
    Rumsfeld likes this.
  4. Ding ding ding!

    Ding ding ding! Active Member Full Member

    1,281
    1,757
    Jun 26, 2022
    But it's subjective after those retirements. Who was the 'man' that Wlad beat?

    And so you think fighters should retain that status regardless of any cheating? If a man beat the man but was found afterwards to have loaded gloves you'd still consider him the lineal champ?
     
    lordlosh likes this.
  5. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Who is ready to suffer for Christ (the truth)? Full Member

    7,226
    7,692
    Nov 3, 2021
    Ruslan Chagaev.
    When Lewis retired a new line had to be created.
    I have answered this question, and I consider the other questions not worth answering.
     
  6. Ding ding ding!

    Ding ding ding! Active Member Full Member

    1,281
    1,757
    Jun 26, 2022
    And who did Chageav beat to become the man?

    Fair enough fella. We'll agree to disagree.
     
    lordlosh likes this.
  7. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Who is ready to suffer for Christ (the truth)? Full Member

    7,226
    7,692
    Nov 3, 2021
    Your writing is starting to look like trolling :)
    I did not state that Chagaev was a lineal champion.
    But when the line is broken (when Lewis retired) a new line is created.
    The new lineal champion decided in the fight Wlad Vs. Chagaev.

    Or should I go with your logic.
    And how Patterson became the lineal champion, when Marciano retired undefeated?
     
  8. Ding ding ding!

    Ding ding ding! Active Member Full Member

    1,281
    1,757
    Jun 26, 2022
    Well that's what I mean by it's subjective though mate; how is it decided what bout starts the new line, there's a level of opinion involved surely? It's not the factual and definitive process that it's made out to be.

    Not sure the troll comment is necessary? Been nothing but genuine and civil in this discussion. As I say though we're clearly quite far apart on this so probably best to agree to disagree.
     
    lordlosh and Finkel like this.
  9. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Who is ready to suffer for Christ (the truth)? Full Member

    7,226
    7,692
    Nov 3, 2021
    I don't decide how a new line starts.
    Which fight decides who is the new lineal champion.
    Nor did I say nonsense when I said Chagaev.
    But when a new lineal champion is obtained, then the line continues as if it had not been broken:
    Wlad > Fury > Usyk
    "the man who beat the man".
     
  10. Finkel

    Finkel Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,976
    4,734
    Feb 10, 2020
    Who does though? Is there a panel? Maybe a website likely funded by one of Fury's backers?

    The issue will always be that the creation of a new man shouldn't be disputed. Logically that means he is undisputed. How do you achieve undisputed in the modern day? Well, you collect all the belts. There is no dispute over that either. It creates a lineage that cannot be disputed.

    So, yeah, Usyk is undisputed champion, and therefore a lineage was created either way.

    Whether Wlad, and therefore Fury, ever were is one for historians to argue over endlessly, and I'm sure they will. But for me, not being able to achieve undisputed because your brother holds the other belt (which wasn't always the case) is a problem for you and your brother to resolve, not marketing teams.
     
    lordlosh and Dangerwood84 like this.
  11. Dangerwood84

    Dangerwood84 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,947
    13,157
    Sep 21, 2017
    Vitali puts Wlad to sleep 9 times out of 10 to me in their heyday. Lineal is just network schtick these days. I pay very little attention to it.
     
    Finkel and lordlosh like this.
  12. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Who is ready to suffer for Christ (the truth)? Full Member

    7,226
    7,692
    Nov 3, 2021
    That is why I am a supporter of the idea of one belt and one champion per category (although I am aware that this is impossible), as it was in the past.
    A single belt champion is both an undisputed champion and a lineal champion; there is no complication.
    Because we come to a paradox. Michael Spinks, undefeated in the ring, lost all belts, but was still the lineal champion.
    And as for Wlad and his brother...
    Vitali retired in 2012.
    Wlad then had fights with: Mariusz Wach, Francesco Pianeta, Alexander Povetkin, Alex Leapai, Kubrat Pulev, Bryant Jennings and Tyson Fury (lost belts) without even trying to fight for the WBC belt (didn't try to fight for the undisputed champion).
     
  13. Rockin1

    Rockin1 Pugilistic Member Full Member

    521
    843
    May 24, 2024
    A professional fighter is a coward?

    I suppose that turtle shells are soft too.
     
  14. Napoleon Bonaparte

    Napoleon Bonaparte Member Full Member

    424
    457
    Dec 8, 2022
    IMO you can only lose the lineal title in the ring, regardless of what the authorities say. Your eyes don’t lie of who beat the man who was “the man.”

    The weight you place on the lineal championship depends on who the lineal champion is facing though. It didn’t mean much when Foreman was doing soft touches in the 90s. It was generally irrelevant b/c Wlad and Vitaly didn’t fight (rightfully). It didn’t mean much when Fury was on his ban/retirement. Fury - Usyk cleared up all that mess post-Lewis IMO, the man who holds all belts versus the man who beat “the man”
     
    ikrasevic likes this.
  15. Finkel

    Finkel Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,976
    4,734
    Feb 10, 2020
    Fair enough, on the one belt per division.

    Wlad did actually try to fight for the WBC belt to become undisputed champion, though. He just didn't when his brother held the title. Which is kind of the problem. Stiverne was mandatory for Vitali. Vitali retired (Klitschko granted extension on Stiverne purse bid - The Ring (ringtv.com)). Stiverne fought for the vacant belt and became champion. At that time, with a WBC champion who wasn't his brother, Wlad wanted to fight for the WBC belt - The WBC vetoed that (Klitschko's Manager: Stiverne is Wlad's Target, Not Pulev - Boxing News (*******.com)). Then, the idea of Wlad vs Wilder was also floated - Finkel said no (Wilder Will Not Be Rushed To Klitschko, Says Finkel - Boxing News (*******.com)). Then he lost to Fury.
     
    ikrasevic and NullaLexInk like this.