The Quality of Marciano's Opponents

Yes Matthews should have stayed a LHW.

 

Well he followed the money and,as Hurley was getting 50% of his purses, he was always going to be pushed towards the big prize.

 

Another candidate.
Nino Valdes.
Jackson.7
Cockell .2
London . 8
McMurtry.10
DeJohn x2.5
Bethea.8
Charles.1

How many more do you want?

 

“Mathews forgot instructions” ….these stories could never be taken in by real boxing people. Those in the know see them for what they are.. It’s typical ball hang that trainers use on press men that don’t know any different…And you lap it up just because you saw it in print somewhere!

it beggars belief that these trainers excuses still make it into print.

It’s straight up “he would have won if he listened to me” BS.

Mathews fought a great fight against Marciano. Brilliant strategy. He literally didn’t do anything wrong. Marciano just adjusted and caught him with a double left hook that would have took anyone out. No shame in that whatsoever.

 

I like this post generally, but Ali certainly shouldn't be described as a powder puff puncher. Ask Foreman or Bonavena.

 

It strikes me that if we are going to compare LaStarza to other contenders over the years, we should see where he stand among his contemporaries. Here are my ratings of the heavyweights of the Marciano era, 1950-55

1-----Marciano
2-----Walcott
3-----Charles
4-----Moore
5-----Louis
6-----Johnson
7-----Layne
8-----Valdes
9-----Henry
10---Satterfield
11---Baker
12---Jackson
13---LaStarza
14---Holman
15---Cockell

 

Talk about missing the point. The point of the post was that even a fighter like Schmeling, who most would rate the #2 or at worst the #3 heavyweight of the 1930's can be made to look bad on a post if one lists only his bad fights and negatives.

Schmeling was arguably the second best heavyweight of the 1930's, and a champion. Savold, LaStarza, Cockell, Matthews, and Woodcock are all only contenders.

As with Schmeling, though, one gets a distorted impression of all of them if only negatives are listed.

"What evidence is there that Sharkey was 'slipping' when he fought Schmeling for the vacant title?"

As I was referring to the 1932 in which Sharkey outpointed Schmeling, the relevance of the 1930 fight is obscure. And what a foul outcome indicates about either Schmeling or Sharkey is also unclear.

 

"Foster was unbeaten with 24 KO's and ranked #5 that qualifies him as a good win on anybodies resume."

I don't disagree, but why isn't Harry Matthews who was unbeaten in over 50 fights, had won 35 with 28 KO's, and besides beating the over-the-hill guys like Mac Foster did, also had wins over prime Layne, Murphy, and Nardico, not a good win for Marciano?

And why would Matthews not be a good win for Cockell in 1953?

Matthews had lost to only four men. The first loss was to a very experienced and winning fighter when Harry was 17. Looking back to how it looked in 1953, Matthews had lost to just three men in the 14 years since he was 17. Two of the defeats were before his 21st birthday, to Eddie Booker and Jack Chase, both of whom also beat Archie Moore and Lloyd Marshall about the same time. Matthews was already in The Ring top ten in 1942 because he had beaten ex-champ Al Hostak. Over the most recent ten years, he lost only to Marciano. He rose to #1 rating in the light-heavyweight division, and top ten in the heavyweight division.

But Matthews is only hype and a paper tiger?

Tiger perhaps. Paper perhaps not.

 

"Marshall was a month off 37, and washed up"

Marshall was ranked #8 in the light heavyweight division in he NBA quarterly ratings of December 22, 1950, the last rating before the Cockell fight. Apparently the folks who were there didn't think he was washed up.

"In his next fight he was KO'd by middleweight Bobo Olson"

A future champion

Even at this point, Marshall was only losing to top men.

 

I predict that someday, in the not too distant future, the comments in this thread will exceed the yoga stretching thread.

 

"Slade was never more than a fringe contender"

Who was rated for six years and rose to be #2 contender in the light-heavyweight division. A few ratings of Slade over the years in the NBA rating in the light-heavy division

Sept 12, 1950-----#5
July 5, 1951-----#8
April 12, 1952-----#8
June 5 1953-----#7
October 13, 1953-----#4
April 13 1954-----#2
December 28, 1954-----#5

He was also off and on rated at heavyweight by both the NBA and especially The Ring.

January 16, 1956--#9 heavyweight

Slade is a lot like Bob Satterfield--an erratic but always dangerous gatekeeper type. He was up there in the ratings because of big wins. The Cockell victory would arguably only be his fourth best win after two over Jackson and one over Henry.

"His drubbing of Don just shows where Cockell stands regarding his status as a heavyweight challenger."

It was indeed a bad defeat.

But not unique. Gypsy Daniels KO'd Schmeling in one. Jim Flynn KO'd Dempsey in one. So Dempsey, Schmeling, and Cockell should just have shucked it in and gone out hoeing spuds. There was no way of coming back and re-building their careers?

"Cockell lost to"

"Taylor, Goodwin, Spring"----as a teenager
Carroll, Barton----at twenty, with both losses revenged.
Wilson--2 loses at 21

After the Wilson losses, Cockell won 20 of 22, losing to Slade and Turpin. He posted 13 wins over ten men who were rated in one time or another, and went on to win a European and British Empire championship and a high ranking.

No one would compare him to history's top contenders, but he is far from the bottom.

 

I was being sarcastic. In truth I agree with you, Ali could hit hard enough, but in this case it was my interpretation of a mcvey tactic.

 

You are real boxing people?
You are an agenda driven joke !

 

How can You be around boxing this long and still rate “if he listened to me he would have won” lines? It’s the bane of boxing folklore. Trainer takes credit on each win, blames his fighter for each loss.

Mathews had a style where he drew leads and countered. He would shift his weight from one foot to the other to avoid a shot and pivot back from that side to counter. That’s what he did. Nothing a coach says in the corner is going to stop that. Side to side. Lure. Counter. Side to side.

Rocky second guessed him. harry drew him in, pulled away to load up but rather than commit to the chase, Rocky paused, doubled up with one hand as Mathews pulled back into the shot with a counter. Blind sided him.

it was not a case of “mathews forgot instructions”. Mathews was doing the same routine. Marciano timed him.

trust your eyes. It’s on film.