Sonny Liston vs Joe Fraizer

And as much as that's likely, we could also see him charging in to kill like he did against Patterson and battering Frazier like nobody else. Let's keep in mind that Patterson's chin was not as weak as it's come to be known as, so I see a repeat of that fight happening. Just like Frazier, he was only ever knocked out against crushing all time great punchers.

You actually see this sort of style triangle often in boxing history, the careful and by the book boxer will lose to the anti-boxer, and the anti-boxer will lose to the awkward boxer. I have to use broad terms here because styles change over time and such, but you could compare the Ali-Frazier-Foreman triangle to Louis-Schmeling-Baer, or others alike. It's the same sort of repeat you see as outboxers and infighters always ending up in rivalries.

 

There was a great docu in the '80s called "Champions Forever" that featured interviews w/ Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Norton & Holmes.

At the 36:26 mark of the vid, Foreman explains how Frazier had him dangerously close to being KO'd if he hadn't luckily managed to stop him when he did, & at other parts of the vid he says he was scared of Norton & caught a lucky break to get him out of there early.

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If we simply take Foreman's statements at face value, it wouldn't make the worst sense. He already said in another interview that he was scared of Frazier, and the only other fighters that he rated above Frazier punch wise (That we know of) are ones that put him on the canvas or had him stumbling (Lyle, Cooney, I think that he only didn't fall against Cooney due to it being the older version of Foreman, who had better balance and made sure not to exhaust himself). The only thing we could do now is try to get a full picture of how he rates the fighters he fought in the 90s compared to those he fought in the 70s and see if his statements line up.
If I could interview Foreman on this topic, I definitely would, since I consider this stuff very interesting.

 

Every time I watch Foreman Frazier I, I am surprised at how much fouling Foreman did. Reminds me of Lennox KOing Michael Grant with a foul punch. Nobody seems to mind because the result was written in stone already. But to keep Frazier from getting under him, Foreman would shove him each time.

 

I don't think that anybody really knew or cared at the time, Foreman did a lot of pushing and shoving in the 70s, and had to change up his style in the 90s not only because of his age, but because of the new rules, I remember a ref from one of his later fights telling him that he couldn't hit with the open part of his hand. It's the same thing as how Ali got away with illegal karate punches all throughout his time reigning as champion.

 

I agree. iirc Frazier actually stunned Foreman briefly, which is when Foreman started the shoving in the first place.

 

I think there are some compelling points here, especially about Foreman's punch variety & uppercut. Liston may have hit as hard as Foreman w/ one punch (his left hook), but he had a clubbing-type right hand, especially at close quarters.

I do think Liston would be a tall order for any fighter his size (or smaller) that comes to him or stands in front of him, but Frazier was simply one of the best pressure fighters in HW history. I think there's as much reason to question how Liston handles what Frazier brings as vice versa.

 

Interesting stuff. Ruleswise I believe any flick jab is a 'back knuckle' (Hearns threw a ton of these) and I think people still get away with it to this day, even leading up to the Fury-Wilder controversy about the flapping glove when Fury threw his flick jab. For some reason I can accept it more as boxing since it is a hand strike with the knuckle. If this is the karate punching you are talking about, that is.

I find the shoving to be more grappling and I wasn't there for it, but sheesh it really had Frazier helpless and offended me as a Frazier fan. His legs and eyes were gone and every time he would take his 2-3 shots to get in, Foreman would just stiff arm him (also illegal) or shove. Already being the bigger, stronger, younger man, Foreman could have fought clean and won.

 

I'm not exclusively talking about the upwards jab, neither. It's just on the edge of legality as long as it's thrown well, but Ali threw a lot of chopping punches in his combinations. Off the top of my head, you can go look at Ali's (While illegal now) beautiful knockout of Brian London.
And as for Foreman, all of his grappling and guard manipulation led to his utter domination of the heavyweight division at the time. Crushing punches combined with pushing your body around and tiring you out in 1-3 rounds rather than 8-10 rounds made him an absolute monster for any fighter he faced.

 

Patterson was down somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 times (maybe more?) in his career, even vs. fighters the level of Cut-n-Shoot Harris & Rademacher, on top of being visibly rocked by McNeeley & out on his feet in the final seconds vs. Machen. Frazier was only ever down vs. two fighters his whole career, one relatively early in his career & the other being freakish Foreman. Patterson's durability (or lack thereof) was nowhere near the level of Frazier's.

 

THAT’S what you think about in the shower ?!?!

sorry lol. Jk

 

A forumite showering is the most surprising part about this thread

 

FOTC Frazier vs prime Liston= 50/50
FOTC Frazier vs past prime Liston= Frazier by late KO
Foreman Frazier vs prime Liston= Liston by KO
Foreman Frazier vs past prime Liston= 50/50

 

I agree, Frazier's was definitely better, he got staggered and rocked against much fewer fighters, (Off the top of my head, I know Ramos stumbled him, Bonavena floored him twice, and Foreman knocked him out, of course) but I just wanted to clarify that Patterson doesn't get blown out in the wind by just anybody, even if he was much more likely to getting hurt than Frazier was. Maybe it's just a matter of his heart.