Cross Guard Users

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Sailor Joe, Jun 27, 2024.

  1. Sailor Joe

    Sailor Joe Member Full Member

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    I've noticed that the users of this guard tend to be in higher weight classes. A young Archie Moore and Gene Fullmer were middleweights, but I'm not seeing lower weights than that. Also, it seems Archie used it more as he moved up. And, Gene had a unique variation of the guard as well.

    Anyone more knowledgeable than me that can name any lower weight fighters that used some type of cross guard (not a Philly shell)?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Mauling Mormon’s banned Full Member

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    Henry Armstrong
     
  3. Marvelous_Iron

    Marvelous_Iron Active Member Full Member

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    I think it's not more common in lower weights because arm size matters, which is why second career Foreman had one of the best, not only because of the physical size of the arms covering more area but also their ability to absorb punches
     
  4. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Norton.
     
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  5. Terror

    Terror free smoke Full Member

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    Best I've seen is Witherspoon but he's obviously a heavy. I think the point about arm size is very valid. I will have to think about this more.
     
  6. Totentanz.

    Totentanz. Gator Wrestler Extraordinaire banned Full Member

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    Witherspoon's use of it was about as beautiful as it ever could be. Definitely made me want to use the cross guard.
     
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  7. Rollin

    Rollin Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Armstrong, Saddler, Nelson, Cotto and many more implemented it for a specific purpose to a lesser or greater extend. Folding down and crossing the centreline with your rear hand was in general a common technique in the old days. Heavyweight just happened to have some of its most famous users: Joe Frazier and Ken Norton (both of which were shaped by Eddie Futch), Tim Witherspoon who I heard was inspired by Kenny, Foreman who was trained by Archie Moore, and the likes of Bert Cooper who were connected to one of the aforementioned.

    Crossguard is a complex topic. A fascinating, advanced system that blends well with the toolset of a crafty technician and charging infighter both. Requires certain paradigm shift in how you box and what pugilistic strategems and concepts you focus on.
     
  8. Rollin

    Rollin Boxing Addict Full Member

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    As to why heavyweight has so many crossguard icons though: a little bit of theatrical luck, I reckon. Norton used it in a very dedicated manner, and later so did Witherspoon, all the while George inherited it from the Old Mongoose. There was certain passing of the torch which made its mark.

    Bear in mind that there are few fighters trained around the crossed armed defence exclusively, like you would train a fighter around the usage of the high-guard. Most pick bits and pieces of it. You can put it down to difficulty of usage, shift in training trends, or fading of the old-school fighters (as certain facets of the boxing of yesteryear were more aligned with how you would like to use to crossguard.)
     
  9. northpaw

    northpaw Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Contemporarily Miguel Cotto was the most prolific user of it. Chad Dawson (he may count as bigger being a LHW, I think you may mean guys who use it smaller than MW) also used it.

    Alot of guys simply don't have the IQ to use it as you have to use it while utilizing body movement and rolling for it to have it's fullest effect. Also there's a size element, you're still somewhat taking shots and larger guys are simply able to absorb some of those shots whereas smaller guys are gonna feel the effects more
     
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  10. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Whiterspoon used more of the philly shell than the cross guard.
     
  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I'm not sure arm size is really a factor; in Muay Thai, they use variations of the cross guard all the time and their arms are tiny.

    I think the reason it's so rare is that is has some practical limitations. It's hard to maintain the guard and a steady jab and it can leave you open to the body. In Thai, however, these aren't really issues as they can teep instead of jabbing and can counter body shots with elbows.

    I think most fighters simply have other tools that don't have the same limitations. It an amazing thing to see though when someone's cross guard is mastered. I always thought a guy like Daniel Dubois would be a monster if he learnt how.
     
  12. Marvelous_Iron

    Marvelous_Iron Active Member Full Member

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    It could almost be considered part of Frazier's offense, he put it up and charged in
     
  13. Boxing2019

    Boxing2019 If you want peace, prepare war. banned Full Member

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    Norton and Foreman.
     
  14. Terror

    Terror free smoke Full Member

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    Tim used both the cross and a shell.

    He said it himself he calls it a cross guard and he explains how to modify it to the shell when at different ranges in an interview (which I conveniently can't even find!) To block body shots he would just drop an arm down and roll, and then back at range he would also use his forearms to block straight punches. They work together. Shelling is a generic term for a tight defense really and Witherspoon mastered how they can flow together. That's why he was the best for me. It's definitely both techniques

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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2024
  15. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Active Member Full Member

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    Not lower weight guys but

    Max Baer
    Paulino Uzcudun
    Max Schmeling

    All used the cross-guard defense and they are from the same era.
     
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