Did you consider Fury & Foreman champions with no belts?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MaccaveliMacc, Jul 2, 2024.


Page 1 of 5
  1. MaccaveliMacc

    MaccaveliMacc Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,409
    6,650
    Feb 27, 2024
    George Foreman won the lineal championship along with the WBA & IBF belts when he beat Michael Moorer. He subsequently vacated both of them and from June 1995 until November 1997 all he had was a claim to the title, recognized my a minority of boxing press. The Ring Magazine at that time didn't crown their champions, so there was no physical embodiment of a traditional title for him to have.

    Tyson Fury vacated his remaining alphabet titles won from Wladimir Kitschko in October 2016 citing inability to fight due to the mental issues. He was still considered the heavyweight champion by The Ring Magazine until February 2018 when he failed to present a concrete fight date to defend his crown. He returned to the ring 4 months later. So for 4 months he held the claim to the title, but was not recognized by any major outlet. Just like George Foreman. He popularized the term lineal champion to keep him in talks as the real king of the division who never lost that distinction in the ring.

    The question is: did you consider these guys champions when they didn't have any belts to show for it? Did you consider Fury the champion when all he had was The Ring title?
     
    MaccaveliMacc, Jul 2, 2024
    MaccaveliMacc, Jul 2, 2024
    #1
  2. Overhand94

    Overhand94 Active Member Full Member

    765
    1,043
    Jun 23, 2024
    I don't consider Foreman as a legitimate champion at that time because he ducked Tucker and should have lost to Schulz.
    And even if we were considering him champion, Crimsley, Savarese and Biggs were not worthy challengers.
     
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    #2
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,577
    27,223
    Feb 15, 2006
    None of this technically undermines his lineal title claim.
     
    janitor, Jul 2, 2024
    janitor, Jul 2, 2024
    #3
    MaccaveliMacc and swagdelfadeel like this.
  4. Overhand94

    Overhand94 Active Member Full Member

    765
    1,043
    Jun 23, 2024
    Yes, but this put his legitimity heavily in question.
     
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    #4
  5. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,723
    4,157
    Jan 6, 2024
    They were all undefeated. Fighting green undefeateds isn't historically unprecedented.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2024
    HistoryZero26, Jul 2, 2024
    HistoryZero26, Jul 2, 2024
    #5
    MaccaveliMacc likes this.
  6. Unique Way

    Unique Way Active Member Full Member

    1,001
    1,898
    Sep 6, 2023
    No, because he clearly lost it to Schulz
     
    Unique Way, Jul 2, 2024
    Unique Way, Jul 2, 2024
    #6
  7. Overhand94

    Overhand94 Active Member Full Member

    765
    1,043
    Jun 23, 2024
    That's a good point. But he clearly lost to Schulz and didn't rematch him.
     
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    #7
    Kid Bacon and Totentanz. like this.
  8. HistoryZero26

    HistoryZero26 Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,723
    4,157
    Jan 6, 2024
    Schulz lost 3 controversial title fights in a row. At some point its got to be on him.
     
    HistoryZero26, Jul 2, 2024
    HistoryZero26, Jul 2, 2024
    #8
  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,577
    27,223
    Feb 15, 2006
    No it doesn't.

    If you accept the principle that Foreman was the lineal champion, then it can only be taken from him in the ring, or via his retirement.

    It doesn't particularly matter if he was defending against weak opposition, or got a gift decision.
     
    janitor, Jul 2, 2024
    janitor, Jul 2, 2024
    #9
    MaccaveliMacc and Kid Bacon like this.
  10. Overhand94

    Overhand94 Active Member Full Member

    765
    1,043
    Jun 23, 2024
    Fair point, but he still lost against Schulz. And considering him champion at that time would mean that he would be ahead of Bowe, Lewis and Holyfield, who beat better regarded opponents.
     
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    #10
  11. Overhand94

    Overhand94 Active Member Full Member

    765
    1,043
    Jun 23, 2024
    I agree that he beat Botha but Moorer clearly won IMO.
     
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    Overhand94, Jul 2, 2024
    #11
    Usyk is the best likes this.
  12. Barrf

    Barrf Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,586
    8,555
    Sep 19, 2021
    They had the lineage.

    Didn’t Larry Holmes spend one fight as a just a lineal champ too? Didn’t he vacate the WBC title, fight Marvis, then after be crowned IBF?
     
    Barrf, Jul 2, 2024
    Barrf, Jul 2, 2024
    #12
  13. Kid Bacon

    Kid Bacon All-Time-Fat Full Member

    5,616
    7,160
    Nov 8, 2011
    I have a soft spot for Old Geoege; thus, I dont hold it against him for milking as much as he could his world title.
    As far as there was not a fix, I am OK with him fighting "easy" challengers.
     
    Kid Bacon, Jul 2, 2024
    Kid Bacon, Jul 2, 2024
    #13
  14. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,719
    3,559
    Jul 10, 2005
    If we are going that route, Does Sullivan and Corbett lose there claim vs Jackson?? Does Jeff lose that belt early vs Johnson?? Does Johnson not facing Langford force a forfeit of the title? How about Dempsey and Wills?? Or Patterson not facing Williams and Machen before Ingo became the top man?
     
    Dempsey1238, Jul 2, 2024
    Dempsey1238, Jul 2, 2024
    #14
    MaccaveliMacc likes this.
  15. thistle

    thistle Boxing Addict Full Member

    7,373
    7,897
    Dec 21, 2016
    Fury IS a Protected, Placed and Secured Fraud...

    they have ******* ized Boxing with him.
     
    thistle, Jul 2, 2024
    thistle, Jul 2, 2024
    #15
    slash likes this.
Page 1 of 5