Larry Holmes vs Sonny Liston

Word.
You're the man, Ney.

 

Ali buckled Liston's knees in the first round. He stopped Bonavena essentially with one punch, not through accumulation.

 

I don't see why you are laughing. Its on tape. Ali stopped Lyle with a big right hand that essentially ended the fight. Not through accumulation. He stopped Bonavena with one big left hook. Show me anything Holmes did that was comparable. Ali is a harder puncher than Holmes.

 

I agree with you that Ali was a hard puncher, but he dominated Bonavena for 15 rounds and only got a technical stoppage off of Bonavena at the very end of the match. He knocked him down three times, but wasn't able to knock him out. This is nothing against Ali in any way, as Ringo was only ever dropped by Ellis otherwise, but you can't make a claim like, "He stopped Bonavena essentially with one punch", in this context.

 

Not to mention the fact that Liston was far past his prime.

 

There we go. Golovkin has stopped guys with jabs before but I'm not going to pretend his jab has one punch power when it came at the end of a thorough beat down.

 

Does it really make any significant difference, between Ali & Holmes? Both were relatively light hitters, what’s it matter in any meaningful way if one punched marginally harder than the other?

 

I know that someone earlier called Ali "feather fisted", I don't remember why it came about or why this is the argument happening, but it is what it is.

 

I think the Machen fight is actually a feather in Sonny’s cap as opposed to being any reference point for criticism or analogy to Liston’s detriment against anyone else.

If Machen didn’t avoid engagement so acutely it was very likely that Liston would’ve knocked him out imo.

Certainly, less than two months prior, Machen saw what Liston did to Folley who himself tried to open up on Sonny, paying the price for same shortly thereafter.

As it was, Liston was patient, methodical and intelligently outboxed Machen in comprehensive fashion over the whole 12 round limit. Only credit points for that, no demerits.

 

1. Martin was 199 pounds when he fought Liston, not 175.

2. The same Michael Spinks who dethroned Holmes started out as a.....middleweight.

That win over Berbick (which many scored against him by the way) was his only win in a 5 year period. He was in the middle of a winless 7 bout streak.

He put up a decent effort but lost decisively..... just one of his many many losses in that 5 year period.

 

But he was overweight and was natural 175 like James Toney was natural SMW.

Comparing Michael Spinks who is easily in top 3 LHWs of all time with contender like Martin is laughable and Spinks was taller and bigger man.

But did Leotis Martin ever beat some good HW in his life like Berbick?
Not just hw but even a lhw?

 

But he wasn't overweight? Have you watched the fight? It's clear as day he's in excellent shape and can carry 200 pounds.

But we weren't talking about height, or ATG ranking. You criticized Liston for losing to a former middleweight. So did Holmes. Only Liston was shot, and at the end of his career while Holmes was prime, but still champion, and had an excellent run the next decade showing he had a lot more left in the tank.

Berbick was extremely inconsistent. Case in point, his next fight after losing to Snipes, S.T Gordon of all people replicated Snipes' career best victory.

 

Fair enough. I guess you think Ali was at his best against Berbick, and Holmes. After all he was a similar age to Liston at the time of Martin.

Frazier also gets no excuses for his performance against Cummings on that basis as well.
Holmes had much better longevity than Liston (and the above listed fighters), there's no denying that.

He has three things to thank for that. His relatively late start, his much healthier lifestyle outside of the ring compared to Sonny, and oh yeah, he avoided the best contenders in the second half of his reign by his own admission, instead feasting on monsters like Marvis Frazier, David Bey, etc.