Larry Holmes vs Sonny Liston

He was overweight because someone who was Mw and started as 175 can't be in shape at 200 pounds.

Holmes was past prime, and doesn't matter how much excuses you wanna make for your hero, he lost against LHW contender while Holmes lost against Top 3 LhWs of all time who was also bigger man which is not the same.

But was still better than Bonavena and many other fighters who beat Martin.
Martin never beat anyone of Berbick caliber.

 

This post made it all worth the scroll. Context seems to be rare these days.

 

Ali had brain damage and slurred speech while Holmes and Liston didn't.

Oh you're now bringin their childhood and late start as excuses?
Liston avoided many fighters too, including Jimmy Elis and Joe Frazier and what about Mac Foster,Quarry and Chuvalo?
If Sonny used drugs that's not excuse but his problem, you wanna bring their grandma's lifestyle as next excuse because Holmes did better than your hero?.

 

Liston did not avoid Frazier. Yank did not want Frazier to fight big punchers, even aging ones like Liston.

 

Agreed about the lifestyle issue. However it counts more against you avoiding guys when you’re squirrelling away the Heavyweight Championship, versus just being a washed out old has-been.

 

How did Foreman slip through the net, then? He was 37-0, with 34 (almost exclusively early-round) KO’s.

 

Foreman was mandatory. Liston wasn't. Yank did not want Joe to fight George. But Frazier feared no one and decided to fight him anyway. If he didn't, he could have been stripped. No way Yank was going to allow young Joe to fight Liston in 67-68.

 

At his best Sonny didn't fight Chuvalo,Harold Johnson and Ernie Terrel and at his old age ducked some fighters while Holmes fought prime McCall,Mercer,Holyfield and Tyson while being past prime.

 

No fighter on this forum is hyped more than Holmes, so I expect this idealized version of Larry- not the one that got outjabbed by Lorenzo Zanon and couldn't keep slow footed Mike Weaver from getting inside and roughing him up- to be seen as putting on a boxing clinic and winning 15 rounds to none on a buncha cards.

Real world fight, Larry gets beat up and kayoed in less than four. Goes out on his shield like he did with Tyson. That would be where my money would be sitting.

 

Weaver.

 

Weaver's chin was pretty phenomenal in his prime, too. Coetzee, Mercado, Tillis, etc.

 

Liston is arguably more overhyped/idealized on this forum than Holmes is - he never beat a genuinely great HW (let alone crushed one in 4), largely feasted on physically overmatched CW-sized fighters for much of his career (& by that I mean the original CW limit), has no proven track record vs. great boxers his size or larger, & surrendered his title on his stool in only his 2nd defense after being tested for only 6 rounds.

 

Patterson, a two-time champ back when there was only one belt, WASN'T great?

Just asking.

 

I don't think it was a diss to Patterson, but rather was calling him Cruiserweight size.

 

Patterson was widely criticized as a vulnerable & protected champion even before the 1st Liston fight. He became a 2-time champ b/c he got bombed out by one of the weakest fighters ever to hold the lineal HW title & was just good enough to beat the same fighter in a return to regain it.

He might've been a great fighter if he'd stayed down at his more natural weight of LHW (where he fought most of his early fights), but I don't regard him as a great HW. I think he likely gets smoked by some of the larger HWs that Holmes routinely defended his title against, i.e.: Cooney, Bonecrusher.