HW Hofs- Usyk / Joshua / Wilder / Fury / Who else?

No argument from me with that.

I guess I would just like to point out that his circle/trainers collected a check and wasted, not just his prime, but entire career, by not teaching him a skill set to compliment his athleticism

 

Yes and he was taking a beating from the third round on when he never recovered from the first KD.

Yes both those last two fights, particularly the third one were especially brutal and the type that ends careers truth be told.

I agree. He's a shot fighter imo.

As you stated, fighters age differently. Zhang is 41, and just now entering his prime while Wilder at 38 is a shell of himself. I think Ortiz looked very good in the first bout, and I definitely don't think the Wilder of the Parker nor Zhang fight beats that Ortiz. Wilder's power isn't the same, due to those fast twitch fibers, being gone at 38 and like you said, he doesn't have anything else to fall back on.

I agree. I try to avoid Wilder threads because nearly everyone who posts there hates his guts (understandable) and are unwilling to be objective, nor give the guy an ounce of credit.

 

I don't want to argue at length about this, again... but Wilder's "records" are like many modern marks, diluted.

Omar Narvaez has nearly the same "championship" record as Julio Cesar Chavez, but you would have to be brain dead to think they were anywhere near the same caliber. Sven Ottke, Pongsaklek Wonjongkam, Chris John, Dariusz Michalczewski, Wilfredo Vazquez, Samuel Serrano, Vuyani Bungu, Sung Kil Moon, Genaro Hernandez, Gilberto Roman, Gianfranco Rosi, Sot Chitalada, Henry Maske, and others (if you accept the WBO revisionism) had 10 or more defenses, and none are in the IBHoF. A number of these were Lineal Champs, too, unlike Wilder. Yuri Arbachakov and Santos Laciar accumulated nine apiece and they were also "the men" of their class. They aren't in, either.

I could lavish praise on Wonjongkom for holding the record for most defenses in his division or Michalczewski for tying Foster's mark. If I wanted to be silly, I could tout Grigorian as having more defenses than Duran. However, I would be missing the mark if I didn't beg for context.

 

Tyson Fury was the best in the division, the top dog, for close to eight years (this era). Fury won all the belts, including the Ring belt twice, and only just lost that belt in the ring for the first time.

Wilder fought Fury three times in heavyweight title fights. Successfully defended against Fury in Wilder's eighth title defense. Lost his title to him in Wilder's 11th defense. Challenged Fury again in Wilder's 13 heavyweight title fight. That fight was voted the Fight of the Year in 2021. And Wilder floored him four times in their three meetings. And Fury said he thought Wilder gave him brain damage.

Anthony Joshua hasn't fought Fury ever.
Joseph Parker hasn't fought Fury ever.
Zhilea Zhang hasn't fought Fury ever.
Luis Ortiz didn't fight Fury ever.
Andy Ruiz didn't fight Fury ever.
Alexander Povetkin didn't fight Fury ever.
Dillian Whyte fought Fury once, and got obliterated.

Wilder fought THE BEST Heavyweight in the division over the last decade in epic heavyweight title fights more times than anyone else.

Even Usyk has only fought Fury once (this year). And who's to say if Usyk will ever beat him again. (Wilder also successfully defended against Fury, and put him down twice in their first fight, to Usyk's once.)

So you can put that garbage away. Seriously.

You can go through a lot of Hall of Famers in a lot of divisions and plenty of them didn't fight the best fighter in their division three times, and weren't involved in a Fight of the Year, and don't hold top 10 all-time consecutive defense or reign records like Wilder.

Who was the best fighter Hall of Famers like Galaxy or Lopez fought in title fights, let alone three times? Was it a 'gross injustice' they were inducted?

Should we go thru all the lighter weight fighters in the Hall who fought lesser guys but just beat a lot of them ... yet nobody says jack squat about it because they're in lighter weight divisions?

 

You did all that talking only to say nothing. Stating a case about Richard Lopez doesn't make what I said about Wilder any less true.

Crying about a slow count in the first fight, but then conveniently ignoring the fact he was out on his feet vs Ortiz is hilarious but that's what is expected of his die hard fans. Create every excuse for his short comings but glorify him like he walks on water for doing average things like stopping guys like Harold Sconiers who was 17-20-2 facing Wilder and put him down once before being stopped. Followed that fight with a bout vs Dan Sheehan who was 11-38..... I so happen to be at both of those fights live. Your favorite man looked clueless in those 2 bouts, but everyone in the building knew that at some point that right hand was bound to land as neither Sheehan nor Sconiers were elite defensively.

You throwing out that he was 3-3-1 vs champions.....What champions did he face besides Steverne and Fury? I guess we can count Siarhei Liakhovich since he did have the WBO for 6 months. That still doesn't give us this 3-3-1 that you are fabricating to promote your man crush with. Fact is, Wilder struggle vs not only top competition, but just average opponents.

 

I guess he means
Liakohovich, Stiverne 1, Stiverne 2 (3W)
Fury 2, Fury 3, Parker (3L)
Fury 1 (1D)


Speaking of Joseph Parker, it's hilarious that he keeps throwing shade at Parker trying to paint him as a PED cheat based on weight gain, association with Fury, and being wrapped up in a drugs trafficking case.

Yet no mention that Wilder was arrested in 2017 for possession of a firearm and drugs. Turned to drugs again to help him come to terms with the Fury losses. And has also suspiciously put on lean muscle mass at an alarming rate in the past. Oh and if it's guilt by association, Wilder's brother also got popped for PEDs.

 

I wonder if Wilder was smaller than Stiverne would he have been able to beat him?

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Yes, speaking of Joseph Parker, he was a washout. Lost to Whyte. Was relegated to fighting the Shawndell Winters of the world. Struggled to get past Junior Fa (who Lucas Browne obliterated). Got flattened and appeared to lose to Chisora. Got beaten up and stopped by Joyce. And he was barely getting by the likes of Jack Massey. His own fans were calling for him to retire.

Ten months later, after he was left for dead ... he arguably goes on the best run of his career against Kean, an aged out Wilder and Zhang.

Speaking of 2017, Parker failed to take a mandated WADA test that year ... they showed up and he was unexpectedly out of the country.

And where Wilder was found with a bag of weed to smoke (which is now legal). Parker was involved in an international Class A drug smuggling/money laundering operation. Hardly the same thing.

We've all been around long enough to know what these washed out fighters who suddenly "turn it all around" and go on an epic run means. The last time we saw it with Povetkin, he failed every drug test he took in 2016 and the entire country of Russia's athletes were banned from the Olympics.

Wilder aged out like pre-PED era fighters used to, gradually fading until his punch was the last to go. We'll see how Parker's ends (and everyone else from this era).

Time will tell.

ANYWAY, I think all four of them get in. They were the big stars of the last decade. Wilder has the all-time records to get in whether he fought in the last era or not.

The guys with the top 10-ever records at heavyweight are in (even if they bomb out to close their careers).

 

A majority believe Fury vs Wilder 1 was a robbery so the context of that "successful title defence" a controversial draw should have some context behind it.

Yes Wilder fought Fury 3 times but never managed to beat him so I don't see how a highly dubious draw and 2 stoppage defeats means you're a hall of fame fighter.

Wilder has numerous title defences yes but only beat 2 top 10 ranked fighters. The question is who is the worst Heavyweight who is in the hall of fame ? And how does his record compare to Wilder's ?

What I will give Wilder credit for is stopping fighters that have considerable weight advantage over him that is impressive to me even if the opposition wasn't that great.

 

People lose me at this.

Everyone he fought in title fights were ranked by the WBC, whose belt he was defending. All of them. Not two. Don't act like they were unknowns or weren't in the title picture. Stiverne was the champion and challenged. Molina and Breazeale both fought Joshua for his title, too. Washington was in an IBF eliminator after the Wilder fight. Arreola got three title shots. Luis Ortiz fought for the title twice. Fury challenged for it three times (including the Wlad fight).

It's just more bull**** to tear him down.

Deontay Wilder made his eighth defense of the WBC Heavyweight Title against 27-0, 6’9” Ring Champ (until earlier that year) Tyson Fury. Fury outweighed Wilder by 44 pounds.

Wilder made the 11th defense of the WBC Heavyweight Title against 29-0-1 Tyson Fury, and lost to him, ending Wilder’s five-year reign. Fury again outweighed Wilder by 42 pounds. Fury regained the Ring title with the win.

Who did these guys make their 8th and 11th consecutive heavyweight title defenses against? Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Jeffries, Marvin Hart, Jack Johnson, Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Jim Braddock, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Sonny Liston, Ernie Terrell, Jimmy Ellis, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Leon Spinks, Ken Norton, John Tate, Mike Weaver, Michael Dokes, Gerrie Coetzee, Greg Page, Tim Witherspoon, Tony Tubbs, Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Trevor Berbick, Tony Tucker, Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Michael Moorer, Oliver McCall, Frank Bruno, Francesco Damiani, Ray Mercer, Tommy Morrison, Michael Bentt, Bruce Seldon, Henry Akinwande, Herbie Hide, Hasim Rahman, Oleg Maskaev, Sam Peter, Sultan Ibragimov, Shannon Briggs, Sergei Liakhovich, Ruslan Chagaev, Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, David Haye, Nikolay Valuev, Lamon Brewster, Charles Martin, Anthony Joshua, Joseph Parker, Andy Ruiz, Oleksandr Usyk and Tyson Fury?

NOBODY. Because they didn’t put their title on the line 11 times in a row.

Wilder is among the most successful heavyweight titlists EVER. He's tied for fifth all-time with the most consecutive heavyweight title defenses.

These are the ONLY Heavyweights EVER who made 11 consecutive defenses (or more). All are in the Hall of Fame, as are everyone who rounds out the rest of the top 10.

Here's a sample of who they fought in their 8th and 11th defenses.

Deontay Wilder:
8th defense: Tyson Fury (27-0) (Ring champ for the previous three years)
11th defense: Tyson Fury (29-0-1) Wilder loses his title to Fury.
(Wilder gives up 44 pounds to Fury in the first fight and 42 pounds to Fury in the second.)

Muhammad Ali
8th defense: Ken Norton (37-3)
11th defense: Leon Spinks (6-0-1). Ali loses his title to Spinks.
(Ali was 4 pounds heavier than Norton and 27 pounds heavier than Spinks)

Tommy Burns
8th defense: Jack Palmer (23-8-2)
11th defense: Bill Squires (21-4)
(Burns was 8 pounds heavier than the 168-pound Palmer. Squires was 4 pounds heavier than Burns.)

Wlad Klitschko
8th defense: Eddie Chambers (35-1)
11th defense: Jean Marc Mormeck (36-4).
(Wlad was 35 pounds heavier than Chambers and 28 pounds heavier than Mormeck)

Larry Holmes
8th defense: the Corpse of Muhammad Ali (56-3)
11th defense: Renaldo Snipes (22-0)
(Ali was 6 pounds heavier/Snipes was 2 pounds heavier than Holmes.)

Joe Louis
8th defense: Bob Pastor (38-4-4)
11th defense: Arturo Godoy (54-11-7).
(Joe was 17 pounds heavier than the 183-pound Pastor and 2 pounds lighter than Godoy).

People on this board have also said they think Ali lost to Jimmy Young and Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers before he lost to Leon Spinks (and Ali didn't knock any of them down twice in their fights). That doesn't mean Ali's defenses didn't count.

This board's continued hatred of Wilder isn't representative of the rest of the fans across the world.

Wilder is a LOCK for the Hall of Fame.

The only way you can take his all-time records away is if FIVE other guys make more heavyweight title defenses than him.

So don't hold your breath. That's why Tommy Burns is still on there nearly 120 years later.

 

Dribblechin

 

I care about Ring Magazine ratings since they're more credible source for the actual top 10 fighters in a division and Wilder has only beaten 2 fighters ranked in the top 10 Stirverne, Ortiz.

Nope just stating a fact Wilder has only beaten 2 ranked fighters.

Yes as you keep saying without adding the context of it being a highly dubious draw that no boxing fan thinks was legit hence the "title defense" you keep harping on about has a major asterisk over it.

Participating in losing efforts against known fighters doesn't mean you're a hall of fame fighter you actually have to have credible resume also to back it up also.

Well if all of them had the luxury of only fighting two ranked opponents with the rest of the title defences not being ranked in the top 10 they would also have alot more title defenses aswell.

Yeah if you want to just look at statistics without taking into account his opposition.

I don't know about Burns i don't really study that era but Louis had 33 wins against ranked opposition, Ali had 30, Holmes had 15, Wilder in comparison has 2 BIG DIFFERENCE.

Fans overlook it as Ali was considerably past his prime and has an amazing resume to fall back on Wilder doesn't. Norton, Young, Shavers, were controversial but still very close fights. Most fans only had Wilder winning 3 or 4 rounds vs Fury.

For me he is not a hall of fame fighter i can see an argument based on title defenses/statistics but the fact he only beat 2 ranked fighters is not good enough for me.

 

Knobby Rider.