Ingemar Johansson vs. Francois Botha

I'd probably make him a slight favourite,though I think he was a pretty average fighter as far as world class is concerned.

 

What modern sized HW has Ingo beaten to prove he can handle Botha or Moorer? Who knows, maybe he could really hold his own in these matchups but the evidence just isn't there. His KOs over Patterson and Machen will not reflect how he does against 230+ pound Botha nor against 220 pound Moorer.

 

Botha is also getting the major short end of the stick, he's a lot better fighter than people give him credit for. One of the best South African Heavyweights ever.

 

Arguably #3 at best. But with 0 (zero) chances of being #1 or #2. You can't call a fighter good for beating bums and conclusively losing to the best fighers.

 

We don't call Mercer an inferior fighter for losing to the best opposition that he faced in competitive affairs, but we do Botha? Botha outpointed Moorer and Tyson ahead of stoppages, was competitive with Schulz and arguably beat Briggs, outpointed Mike Hunter, but isn't given his dues. Only thing you can put against him was a use of steroids (Steroids, in the nineties? Insane.), and getting sparked out in two by Lewis.

 

Botha DIDN'T outpoint Moorer. He was losing wide on 2 cards and winning slightly in third one which was ridiculous scoring - I had Moorer winning 9-2 (+ knockdowns), Jim Watt had Moorer winning 10-1 (plus knockdowns). Go watch the fight. Except of round 5 it was all Moorer. Tyson was washed up and very very rusty, and still KTFOed Botga with a single punch prior to bout's middle point.

As for Mercer, he went life-and-death against ATG Lennox Lewis and lost a close decision to another ATG Evander Holyfield. Beat the best versions of Morrison, Damiani and old but still good version of Witherspoon (controversially, but still, like Lewis fight it wasn't a robbery, just "it can go either way" fight). Morrison, Damiani or Witherspoon alone each singlehandedly outweighs Botha whole winning column. So no, this comparison doesn't work at all.

 

I am a huge Michael Moorer fan and I had him losing that fight, there would be no need for one of Kevin Rooney's dumbass speeches if he was in no risk of losing the fight. Yes, Tyson was not the same man that he was before, but he still was dangerous and was nothing short of a big name in the division, and taking four of five rounds against him was still impressive- Not even Lewis did that in their first four rounds, and he won in masterful fashion against Tyson.

Mercer lost against Lewis and Evander on decisions despite all of his effort, and was outpointed by Morrison and Damiani comfortably before knocking them out, which is not as impressive as you may think. Morrison gassed himself out in their first few rounds and got rocked easily due to his glass chin (Not to mention that Morrison obviously put on better performances past this match), and Damiani controlled the whole match before getting a blow to his weak nose and breaking it- The Cooper match would be better evidence for Mercer here, as he had a broken a chin and outpointed Bert for fifteen, as well as scoring an impressive knockdown in the first. On top of that, he LOST to Witherspoon, it was a straight up robbery that Mercer won simply because of name recognition, and there's no reason that he should've lost it to an old Witherspoon after going so hard against Lewis and Holyfield, no matter how good Witherspoon still was.

I am fans of both of these men much more than I am Botha, but it's silly to not give him any credit.

 

10 people (fans) scored it on BoxRec and average score is 107-101 for Moorer. If you somehow score that fight for Botha it just shows you are very biased in his favour.

I give Botha credit for being tough. That's it. Other than that he doesn't deserve any more credit than guys like Vaughn Beane who has similarly good losing column and similarly bad winning one. Or Zeljko Mavrovic. I give hell a lot more credit for the guys with more losses but who actually managed to beat good opponents. Guys like Mike Weaver or James Smith deserves a lot, lot more credit than Bothas, Mavrovics or Beans of boxing.

 

Atlas, yeah, I'm a bit out of it today. Apologies

 

I scored the Schulz bout in Moorer's favor, I've said multiple times that I'd take him over Patterson, amongst other h2h fights, go search up some of the stuff I've said and defended him on and you'll see that I am not lying when I say that I prefer and have more bias towards Moorer than I do Botha.

He doesn't need tons of credit, but he should be given some at the very least. And that least should be enough for us to value him over a hard hitting would be cruiser from the sixties who got one win over Patterson and nothing else.

 

Botha could have easily replicated Marciano's undefeated resume, probably twice over. That's the gap between those days and the era in which Botha fought.

Francois had the finest set of Boerish hams this side of DuPlooy. It's all about proper breeding. Unfortunately, training discipline is not inherited. But in the end, the three guys who sparked out Fran near his brutal and impressive physical prime were named Tyson and Lewis. The Moorer stoppage was more a Pyric style beatdown over many rounds. The Botha who took Moorer to death's door beats any version of Ingo.

 

So, KO1 win over top contender Eddie Machen doesn't count, yes? Because it weighs far more than all Botha wins combined. Wins over Cooper, Erskine, London, Ten Hoff are also clearly better than wins over Hoffmans and Bostices (and none of them was even slightly impressive - Botha beat Bostice by close decision few months after ancient Witherspoon annihilated him in 1 round). Ingo was good fighter, world champion. Botha was fringe contender at best with awful resume in winning column. Ingo is levels above Botha historically and has proven himself as capable of beating world class fighters of his own era which Botha never did.

 

LOL, have you ever watched the fight? Moorer won all but 2 rounds. Botha hurt him in 5th, but Moorer hurt him far more in round 3 putting him on the verge of KO. Moorer completely dominated late part of the fight and did a demolition job on poor Botha with hard knockdowns in round 11 before finishing him early in 12. The fight was completely opposite to what you are describing it.

 

As for Botha going undefeated against Marciano opponents - it's probably the dumbest thing I've read here. How he would do so, if he just barely went undefeated against 186 lbs Ginger Tshabalala, 199 lbs Mike Hunter and 205 lbs Siza Makathini defeating each of them by split decision only? Do you consider them better than Charles, Walcott, Moore or even old Joe Louis?