Why didn’t Holmes ever unify?

I take your point, I just feel that I remember in real time not really feeling Holmes had much to prove.
Age was also perceived differently back then.
He was 33 in 1983 and that was ' veteran ' status or thereabouts. Having had his flagship wins over Norton Ali , Cooney and significant wins against Berbick , Spinks, Shavers etc I don't think too many people had an issue with some cherry picking.
Regarding Dokes , when do you feel Holmes should have fought him ? As I recall his best win was Weaver , who he then drew with in a rematch then he lost to Coetzee ( in later '83 i think ) and after that there wasn't much else.
Unless I'm missing something I don't recall a demand for Holmes v Dokes. I can't deny it would've been a significant match up at the time but never felt it was a ' big miss'. If Dokes lost to Coetzee do you think he would've been a big problem for Holmes ?

 

He was definitely on the way out but so was Hagler when taking on guys like Mugabi. Hagler had proven his pedigree substantially deeper than even Holmes. Hagler was always looking to fight the best all the way to the end. Carlos Monzon finished his career with Rodrigo Valdes, the second best middleweight in the world and a huge puncher, not once but twice. Joe Louis was still winging away at the best even after all the Heavyweight records he broke and at an advanced age as well.

Some did, some didn't.

Opportunities are slim but it's not about one person it's about the whole trend. When Dokes fought Coetzee he had become a cocaine addict and trained for the fight on Jack Daniels and cocaine. It's documented that he ended a coke binge 2 to 3 days prior to the fight and it certainly showed in the ring as he was lifeless. That's on him of course.

There wasn't much demand but there was seldom much demand for Holmes vs anyone excepting Cooney (for obvious reasons) because Holmes was always the B side in his biggest fights. There's still an expectation and demand for the champs to fight some top contenders at various points in time tho.

Dokes would have been a better match against Holmes than the bunch of scrubs he did pick. I don't think Dokes would have won especially given his drug timeline vs Holmes decline but myself and everyone else on earth thought he would walk thru Michael Spinks too. If he fought say three or four of these guys post Cooney there's a reasonable chance one would have toppled him.

 

The fact that you agree that it's highly unlikely that Dokes would've beaten Holmes sort of renders this debate redundant. If Holmes were to have beaten him convincingly then you may even have added Dokes to the list of ' Scrubs' that Holmes beat.
It sounds like your issue is more with the slight dearth of HW talent in that era.
I'll agree that Holmes picked his opponents carefully once he reached a certain point, but don't recall feeling short changed by him overall . He was an excellent champ.

 

Plus he was the linear champion after beating Ali and he had beaten Mike Weaver anyways...

 

Nor did Lupe Pintor nor Chapo Rosario nor Macho Camacho nor Santos Laciar,...

With so many great fighters looking for one's crown, unifying was pase by then anyways and the few times when they did, it was special events like Leonard-Hearns, Spinks-Qawi or Curry-McCrory.

Its ironic but pre-internet, even challengers were more household names than now.

 

What renders it redundant is you revising my comments and making incorrect interpretations. I did not say it's "highly likely" Dokes wouldn't have beaten Holmes. As previously stated i did not think Spinks would beat Holmes either yet there he was. No-one thought Buster would beat Tyson ether. You seem somewhat stuck on Dokes. When Thomas beat Weaver and was screaming from the rooftops for Holmes he had around a 50/50 chance of winning according to many. Page was a live underdog had they fought when Holmes was directed to fight him. Opening odds were up and sat at 8-5 for Holmes from memory. Thomas post Weaver would have been shorter.

Again incorrect and not by a short distance. Dokes was a long term top 5 contender and i have been focusing on them throughout. A win over Dokes prior to him being beaten would have been considered by many to be his best defense. Some would have argued Cooney but Cooney only ever beat one top 10 contender and he was only just in the top 10. It would have been a fine defense, Dokes was heavily hypes. No-one Holmes defended against post Cooney was heavily hyped.

I have no idea how you could arrive at that. My issue is Holmes avoiding top 5 contenders post Cooney, nothing more nothing less. It's actually an undeniable fact no matter how much people posture. He actually stated himself, out of his own mouth, that he was going to take it easy on the way down. Even when Bey gave him a toughish fight he said no more Bey's.

Well it simply cannot be argued against. He was an excellent champ until post Cooney. I've already nominated numerous others that kept taking the high road and giving the better contenders a shot. It tarnishes his legacy somewhat for those that are willing to accept it. Jeff Ryan called him on it and he was one of the most respected boxing writers of the 80's.

 

Nice try

Holmes was ordered to fight Page next by the WBC prior to any Scott Frank or Marvis Fazier fight. You've conveniently left out the guts of the timeline - surprise!

NYT

From the very beginning, it was apparent that the warnings that this fight would be a mismatch were correct. Larry Holmes, the World Boxing Council heavyweight champion, bloodied and bruised an outclassed Scott Frank repeatedly tonight until Referee Tony Perez stopped the bout at 1:28 of the fifth round with Frank bleeding from cuts over the eye and from the nose.

For Holmes, it was his 44th victory without a loss and 16th successful title defense. Frank suffered his first loss in 22 fights, but the record had been misleading. He looked amateurish against Holmes as he fruitlessly tried to walk past the champion's stinging left jab, which reddened his face in the opening minute of the fight.

''Scott will attest to the power of my jab,'' Holmes said afterward. ''You just don't walk through that punch. His eye was swollen in the first round. And I can take you down with it, too. I think the referee did the right thing.''

Holmes was scoring easily; he peppered Frank with the jab, crisp right hands to the head and equally damaging punches to the ribs. He even connected with several right-hand uppercuts that snapped Frank's head back. The challenger, who is from Oakland, N. J., waved his glove at Holmes as if he were not hurt, but his face told another story.

After winning the first four rounds handily, Holmes continued the onslaught in the fifth. A straight right hand stunned Frank, and a left hook to the face dropped him for the first time. Frank was up at the count of 4 but complained to Perez that he had been thumbed.

''I wasn't knocked down,'' said Frank, whose left eye was cut and closed. ''I went to one knee because of the pain in my eye. I needed a few seconds to clear it up.''

Holmes rushed in, and after the champion landed several more punches, Perez stopped the fight. Frank protested, but not aggressively. He had based his chances of beating Holmes on the hope that he could get inside and rough up the champion. However, it was Holmes who easily was the stronger.

''I wanted to work on my right hand and my right uppercut,'' Holmes said. ''I'll be using them against Marvis Frazier.'' Holmes's next fight will be against Frazier Nov. 25. Punches Seemed Desperate

''It was a good fight,'' Frank said. ''I wish I could have done better. But I want to thank Larry for putting the money in my pocket.''


All of Frank's punches looked as if they were being thrown in desperation. He pawed with his left, then threw roundhouse rights. He landed two of them late in the second round, but Holmes was not hurt.

''He got me with one at the end of the round,'' Holmes said, ''and it made me alert. I realized that Scott could punch.''

The champion weighed 223 pounds, and there was speculation that he had not trained seriously. He did carry extra weight around his middle, but he was as good as he had to be.

''I have never been this heavy, and I probably should have weighed less,'' Holmes said. ''I should have been 218 pounds, like I will be for Frazier.'' Challenger Looked Small

Frank, who weighed 211 pounds, looked small compared with Holmes. It did not help the challenger that he had had an argument earlier in the day with his trainer, Lou Duva. As a result, Duva was not in Frank's corner. Their relationship has been stormy at best during the past six years.


''I don't know what happened,'' Frank said. ''I've got nothing to say about it. Ask Lou.'' Duva was unavailable for comment.

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Although Holmes has been a busy champion, he has not fought a No. 1 contender since he defeated Gerry Cooney on June 11, 1982.

Holmes argued that, no matter what the W.B.C. did, he would be recognized as the people's champion. He had added leverage, because the United States Boxing Association International sanctioned the Holmes- Frank bout and said it would recognize the winner as the champion. That could have meant that, eventually, there would be three heavyweight champions. Michael Dokes is the World Boxing Association titleholder. Agreed to 12 Rounds

Sulaiman eventually capitulated when it became clear that Holmes was determined to follow through and fight Frank, then go on to a match against Frazier in November before facing Greg Page, the W.B.C.'s No. 1- ranked contender. Holmes, in turn, agreed to limit this fight to 12 rounds, the W.B.C. title limit. The U.S.B.A.I. then withdrew its recognition of tonight's fight.

Holmes turned the promotion of the Frank and Frazier fights over to Bob Andreoli, a Rhode Island businessman, and Murad Muhammad, a promoter who first met Holmes when they both worked for Muhammad Ali.

The situation was fluid not static as King and the WBC slowly tightened the noose around Holmes neck.

On September 10, 1983, Holmes successfully defended the WBC title for the sixteenth time, knocking out Scott Frank in five rounds. Holmes then signed to fight Marvis Frazier, son of Joe Frazier, on November 25, 1983.

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Promoter Don King offered Holmes $2.55 million to fight Page, but the champion didn't think that was enough. He was making $3.1 million to fight Frazier and felt he should get as much as $5 million to fight Page.

Holmes kept promising he'd fight Page next and then going on to another fringe heavyweight. He first defied them with Frank and then Frazier. He was supposed to fight Page before both. They upped the pressure by refusing to rank Frazier and allow it as a defense. Holmes had signed to fight Page and again reneged after Frazier and relinquished the title before they could strip him which was about to happen.

 

Larry Holmes 1983 "I'm ducking Greg Page because the money ain't there".

 

He had to have been held at gunpoint when he said that, judging by these laughable comments.

 

"Larry Holmes never fought anyone after Gerry Cooney in 1982."

Well, actually, he fought FOUR other guys who were or became heavyweight champions in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986 and 1988 -- two of them being the only other Hall of Fame Heavyweights who were champions in the 80s - Witherspoon, Smith, Spinks and Tyson.

"But he didn't fight Greg Page."

Nobody ****ing cares, except for the three or four guys who won't stop arguing here.

Holmes is in the Hall of Fame and an all-time great. Page isn't. Never was. Never will be.

This argument was dead 40 years ago.

Greg Page in his 20s couldn't even beat Joe Bugner or Mark Wills for Christ's sake. Page was a bad mandatory. Nobody was beating down the door wanting to see Greg Page. Larry got paid more to fight Marvis Frazier, who actually beat Joe Bugner.

Page was a bad mandatory. In the history of guys who were bad mandatories, Greg Page is near the top. (One list where he actually deserves to be near the top.)

 

Spoon was not a heavyweight champion when Holmes faced him. He was a cherry pick by Holmes that nearly backfired.

Smith also was not a champion when he faced Holmes, and only won it because of the farce with spoon a couple years later.

Spinks was heavyweight champion BECAUSE he beat Holmes. He was the cherry pick that actually DID backfire.

As for the "Larry Holmes never fought anyone after Gerry Cooney in 1982." Yeah that's just a strawman that you manufactured, so you could sneak in the Tyson fight.

The "controversy" regarding Holmes is that he never fought his top contenders after Cooney during his reign, and it's not a controversy because he readily admitted to it despite your laughable excuses.

 

Correct.

 

Correct. While there may have been a "dearth" of talent post 1982, Larry faced a future champion in 1983, a future champion in 1984, and Hall of Fame champions in 1985, 1986 and 1988.

Honestly, when there are bad mandatories today, nobody bashes a champ who decides to look for a unification instead of fighting the bad mandatory, or for fighting another guy for more money. They get mad at the champ for going thru with the bad mandatory.

Who remembers how many mandatories Salvador Sanchez, Wilfredo Gomez, Alexis Arguello, Aaron Pryor, Carlos Palomino, etc. made back then? Who's still counting and bashing them for it?

 

Name Larry Holmes' top IBF contenders who he failed to meet thru the end of his reign?

Post the IBF ratings. Let's see everyone he ducked.