Foreman Vs Bonavena - 1970?

Who were the guys who beat Bonavena easily? I don’t spend a lot of time watching heavyweights I’ve seen a bit of Oscar and he was a puzzle to get rid of.

 

I never mentioned anything about anyone beating Bonavena “ easily. “

 

I didn’t say you did I was asking a bit obliquely what kind of stylistic issues did he have with Foreman?

 

He was a shorter smaller fighter who liked to brawl in close and that type of style and stance made a perfect home for Foreman’s two fisted attack even as early as 1970. He also would have been the type that foreman could have easily pushed back into mid range where he liked them.

 

I don’t think Bonavena is someone Foreman could shove back - he fell in behind his punches leaving your hands out like that… Oscar would’ve locked up or leapt in and got dirty, that sort of mauling is tiresome, George was too tense. GF would let him get close but he’d smother his own work like With Ali - he wasn’t an inside fighter we have never seen George relive someone this durable of there senses.

 

At no time in their careers does George Foreman defeat Oscar Bonavena, but let's discuss 1970 first.

We have Ringo on film running circles around Chuvalo in 1966, staggering the rugged Canadian and producing two uncredited knockdowns just one bout before coming a single knockdown of stopping Frazier in two rounds, where Joe himself wrote he was in extremely serious trouble with over a minute of that round left to go. If that one had been scored on the ten point must system, Oscar would have won. At a location other than New York where less emphasis was placed on aggression, Bonavena would have won. As it was, there was still a split decision.

He had traded decisions with Zora Folley, won over 12 against Peralta and Mildenberger (Karl via UD in FRANKFURT), gone the Championship Distance in the Frazier rematch, would take Ali into the 15th round, and had wins over McNeeley, Whipperman, Big Train and Leotis. He'd gone the ten round limit ten times and also had a tenth round stoppage win. He also had a ninth and seventh round count out win, whereas George would never produce a knockdown past round five during his first career.

Jimmy Ellis saved himself by blasting down an onrushing Bonavena in different rounds with a left hook and a right hand, but Jimmy was tiring very badly when those knockdowns saved him. Yes, Ali managed to stop him, but needed 15 rounds to do it. And he would have had to go to the final bell to do it in 1967.



Later, in 1974, Oscar took Lyle round limit, then the 12 round limit, then beat the 6'4" Larry Middleton via 12 round UD.

Yes, I'm saying it right here. If George Foreman attempts to defend the World Heavyweight Championship against Oscar Bonavena in a scheduled 15 rounder, he gets utterly exhausted and knocked out during the Championship Rounds, as Ringo takes the Title.

I just reviewed the entirety of Ringo quickly skipping left and skipping right on Chuvalo, quickly shoving both he and Frazier back in the clinches, and even walking and punching back the physically powerful Canadian, something Foreman himself didn't do until he rang Chuvalo's bell with that hook. But Bonavena wouldn't be standing still in front of George. Foreman was great at cutting off the ring on Norton with steps to the right, but Ringo was no back foot bucketed Ken when it came to mobility, and certainly not when it came to predictability.

Styles make fights. So does endurance and unpredictability. Oscar knew what to do with George, and Foreman and his handlers probably knew it too. After Peralta II, he was fed a diet of one to two round victims, except for Pires, who was forced to quit after four rounds with a broken left elbow in a bout where George was very obviously getting arm weary. Ringo stopped an uninjured Pires three times, in six, eight and eight rounds. Does Foreman stop or even defeat an uninjured Pires? (His very next outing a year later after his left elbow healed, Lyle halted Luis in three. Of course Ron could win 12 rounders and developed ring stamina young Foreman never had, winning seven times over the ten round limit. If he'd boxed George early instead of going to war, Foreman's career would've ended for good, then and there.)

There is never any chance that George Foreman somehow gets Oscar Bonavena out within five or even seven rounds of a Championship Distance bout, and that's all she wrote. Ringo too awkward, too unpredictable, too strong, too durable, too mobile, too experienced, too fast and too smart for the severely endurance challenged George Foreman to ever defeat.

1970 would've been a ten rounder, but that reduced distance wouldn't have saved a much less developed Foreman back then.

 

Stopped reading here.

 

Made the mistake of continuing to read.

I'm sending you an invoice for wasting my time.

 

Hey man, I'm rejecting your invoice. I led with the appropriate headline, then you decided to open the package anyway. So you wasted your own time. Don't blame me, Swag! Practice some self responsibility, won't ya? (Christ! Kids these days! Spoilt rotten.)

YOU said YOU made the mistake of continuing to read, then BLAME ME for YOUR choices? Swag, you are a spoiled rotten Gen laZy brat!

 

Yeah, you completely lost me there. This is comedy.

 

Oscar was 5’10” and 200 lbs. Foreman pushed bigger men back into mid range. Why do the laws of physics magically change with Bonavena ?

 

Keep in mind that the sub 200 pound Peralta hung well with Foreman twice.

Bonavena shoved Frazier back the way Foreman did, but he also showed in the Chuvalo footage that he could move around while also actually pushing back the Canadian block of granite in a way Foreman did not. (Big George had to move around Toronto George, as did Frazier.)

Ringo had punch resistance not shared by Frazier or Norton, was far more unpredictable, had far greater stamina, vastly more maneuverability and considerably more experience than Foreman ever obtained before his comeback. He'd know what George was going to do (we all do), but Foreman couldn't be ready for whatever the Argentine bull might be pulling.

Foreman was excellent cutting the ring off with steps tp the right, but Bonavena was excellent skipping counter clockwise.

Among HW Champions, only Jeffries and possibly Marciano were equal in physical strength (although Jeff and Rocky had obscenely superior endurance and stamina), but Ringo had the combination of punch resistance, physical strength and mobility necessary to take George into the middle rounds. He was crazy awkward.


Back to the thread title about 1970 for a moment. Unlike Foreman and Norton, Oscar wasn't cherry picked to contention. Tom McNeeley in his sixth outing via fifth round stoppage (only Patterson ever took McNeeley out in an earlier round), Wipperman over ten in his very next match, Folley I was his ninth match, Goyo I was his 15th bout, a 12 round UD in Argentina (where a substantial margin was required to gain a decision verdict, I believe by a minimum of three points), Chuvalo, Frazier, Big Train, Mildenberger (over 12 IN GERMANY), Pires 3X, Ellis (Jimmy's best career win in a bout where he was nonetheless tiring), Leotis, Folley II, and he had sufficient firepower to produce a ninth round stoppage and three more over eight.

Entering 1970, the gulf in experience for Ringo was obscene. George had only gone a full ten with Levi Forte and was 13-0, while Bonavena was 41-5-1, and had gone the Championship Distance in the Frazier rematch.

Oscar is not getting taken out before it enters the middle rounds. Then, the tide starts to turn. Again, keep in mind that Foreman never produced a knockdown during his first career beyond round five. He pushes Bonavena back, Ringo would run right just as the chinny Morrison later would. We have the footage.

 

Because he wants to find any reason to say Foreman loses. It could be Foreman vs Charlie Zelenoff and he'd find an argument to favor Charlie somehow.

 

The more I think about this the more I think Oscar would be in big trouble here.

The only reason I sort of danced around him having a chance ... and I still stand by the gist of what would concern me ... is that Oscar was so clumsy and tough and came at you sort of off kilter that I think he would not have been "the first big name" you wanted to throw at a powerful but still green and learning George. Chuvalo was the perfect foil for that role.

 

Zelenoff would spit his mouthpiece in George's eye and blind him.

I have always stated that Foreman would've killed Tyson if they'd met in George's second career. Mike didn't have the power to hurt him, the physical strength to stand up to Foreman, or the height and reach to confront him with head on. George would've planted his gloves on those broad squared up shoulders of Tyson at the opening bell and Boone Kirkman all over again.

Now I already told @JohnThomas1 , "Dude, his grills SUCK! What more reason do I need to hate him?"