Was Louis vs Walcott 1 a Robbery??? Analyzing the Scorecards

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Pedro_El_Chef, Aug 23, 2024.


  1. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Active Member Full Member

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    Many people have called the verdict of this bout a robbery against Walcott, but I've never seen those people bring up the official scorecards despite nearly all of them agreeing with Ruby Goldstein's score 6-7-2 in favor of Walcott.
    Even worse, many watch the limited highlight reel and give the fight to Walcott, despite the fact that only 15 minutes of action are available out of the 45 minutes of fighting that happened that night.
    Considering that 70% of the fight footage doesn't exist, it is impossible to score it by video, so I will look into the official cards to see if I can come up with a new score to find the winner.

    To determine which fighter won which round, I'll check how many judges voted for a fighter for a particular round. If all 3 agreed on one guy winning that round, chances are he probably won it.
    Otherwise, if the judges aren't all in agreement I will use the points system to award rounds. For this fight they awarded anywhere between 1-3 points to the winner of each round, the more points a fighter got for each round, the more dominantly they won that round.
    For example, Walcott knocked Louis down in round one was awarded the round by all three judges and was awarded 3 points by each of them.

    Now if for a round neither fighter has all three judges on their side, and they also were merely given the round with one point, I will award the round to the fighter who was given the round by at least two of the three judges.

    The reason I am not immediately awarding the rounds based on majority rating is because Louis would be the clear winner by default as he had more rounds given to him by at least two out of three judges than Walcott (the end result would be 9-6 Louis).
    Once you judge each round using absolute agreement between the three judges and the points system, you get a closer result between the two fighters.
    This will lead to rounds that were awarded to Louis by two of the judges being instead given to Walcott because the one judge who gave it to him did so with 2 or 3 points, which shows dominance, as opposed to Louis with just one point given by two judges.

    Here is the link to the official judges score cards that I will use to make a re-evaluated score: https://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/nieuwsfoto's/judges-score-cards-from-joe-louis-james-walcott-match-dec-nieuwsfotos/514891438

    Each round Walcott won with a clear lead (all three officials backing him) there is a bold red
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    next to it.
    For Louis it's a bold orange
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    .
    Rounds that neither fighter won on all three cards are marked as "Unclear".
    For Unclear rounds where a fighter was given two or more points, it will be signified with the fighter's letter&color, (
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    or
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    ) and the number of points next to it.

    The scorecards re-evaluated: https://imgur.com/a/o71KTBJ

    Walcott gets rounds 1, 2, 4, 12 with all three judges backing him.
    Louis gets rounds 3, 6, 14, 15.
    Neither of the fighters showed dominance during the middle rounds with the exception of Louis winning the sixth.
    The scoring is 4 - 4 - 7 which is a Draw.

    But when I award each fighter the rounds where they won with extra points, Walcott gets rounds 8 and 11, Louis gets rounds 10 and 13.
    The scoring is now a 6 - 6 - 3 Draw.

    The remaining rounds that are still Unclear are the middle rounds 5, 7 and 9. Neither fighter got more than one point on these rounds so to determine the winner I will use Majority Verdict and score the round for whichever fighter got the round on two out of the three cards.
    Round 5 is L1 E0 L1 a Louis round.
    Round 9 is W1 E0 W1 a round for Walcott.
    Round 7 is L1 W1 L1 it's again a Louis round
    Score: 8-7 a super tight decision win for Louis.

    But what if I go with Ruby Goldstein's scorecard, the official who gave the fight to Walcott, to determine the three questionable rounds?
    He scored 5 and 9 a Draw and round 7 for Walcott making it 6 - 7 - 2 for Walcott , again, a very close Decision win (which also happens to be his official scorecard).

    With all that in mind, it becomes challenging to determine who clearly deserved the win and the probable case seems to be a draw, considering that tallying up the rounds for which each fighter was dominant leads to scores 4 - 4 - 7 and 6 - 6 - 3, both of which are Draws. The swing rounds made Louis the winner by a fraction but Walcott could've easily been the one to win the fight if just one more of those even rounds was scored in his favor.

    But what if the two judges were biased against Walcott? What if the judges thought punches Louis was missing were actually connecting? What if they couldn't appreciate Walcott's fine boxing style and were as befuddled as Louis himself and they couldn't understand what was going on?

    Goldstein obviously doesn't have to answer for any of these as he scored it for Walcott, so it leaves us with Frank Forbes and Marty Monroe.

    Frank Forbes voted 5-4 in favor of Walcott for Walcott vs Elmer Ray 1, a fight which was given to Ray by the two other judges. Ray was listed number 44 in The Ring magazine's 100 Greatest Punchers.
    Forbes could appreciate Walcott's fine boxing against a puncher and be the only judge to award him the fight.
    As for any bias towards Louis, he gave Joe the lowest score out of the three judges in his fight against Ezzard Charles, a 2-13.

    Marty Monroe on the other hand never officiated any Walcott fight before or after Louis-Walcott 1 after which he retired.
    He did however act as a judge in Ezzard Charles vs Elmer Ray 1, and he was the only one of the three to give the fight to the backtracking boxer Charles with a wide margin of 8-2.
    Edit: Monroe officiated during Louis vs Conn 1, he gave Louis the least amount of rounds, his scorecard being 7-4 in favor of Conn. The other two had it 7-5 and 6-6.

    Neither of the two judges ever showed discrimination against Walcott, nor did they show bias towards Louis or any bias towards the puncher in boxer vs puncher matches, so to say they couldn't tell Walcott was slipping punches is a baseless claim. To say they couldn't evaluate smart boxing and only scored on aggression is equally false.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2024
  2. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Fantastic deep dive into this fight to shed some light on the scoring.

    Well done.

    Seems to me that even if one were to think Walcott won narrowly, there were a lot of swing rounds — more than enough that Louis would retain if he gets his share of those.
     
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  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The decision for this fight was by far and away the most controversial of The Bomber’s career and to this day the word used to describe it is “robbery.”

    The 2012 Manny Pacquiao-Timothy Bradley fight was the benchmark robbery for a generation. This is a result so seemingly without explanation that of the one-hundred and twenty-five media sources I have seen produce a scorecard we have one-hundred and twenty-one scoring in favour of Pacquiao, three scoring in favour of Bradley, and one scoring the fight a draw. That is a ratio of around about 1:30 against those seeing the fight any other way than a win for Pacquiao. The Pittsburgh Press conducted a ringside poll of writers at the venue the night Louis decisioned Walcott and whilst the majority, twenty-four, had Jersey Joe the winner, some sixteen had it for Louis. This is a ratio of 2:3 against.

    One media source reports a Bradley win for every thirty polled.

    Two media sources report a Louis win for every five polled.

    The point is not that Pacquiao was robbed and so Louis was not, the point is that those who did not see a win for Pacquiao in the first Bradley fight can be dismissed as statistical anomalies—they either made mistakes or sat in a corner of the stadium that would always give birth to a strange scorecard. In the case of Louis, he is backed by sixteen boxing men who know the fight game. If we include the judges amongst those polled, the difference between those who see it for Louis and those who see it for Walcott starts to look more negligible.

    The widest media scorecard I have been able to source for Louis-Walcott was the AP card which had it 9-5-1 for Walcott. I was unable, as a primary source to uncover more than three ringside card that had Walcott winning any more than eight rounds. Those who stood in judgment over Louis in a surprisingly rabid press that following week typically did so based on a scorecard provided for them by a ringside reporter that had Walcott winning only six, seven or eight rounds. This is exactly what almost every single ringsider has Louis scoring.

    But most interesting to me were the reports made by the two sources which, rightly or wrongly, hold the most weight in my mind when it comes to deducing the reality where close, un-filmed fights are concerned. The New York Times described Louis as having been “out-thought” and “generally made to look foolish,” but the newspaper also scored the fight for the champion because he had “made all the fighting, did most of the leading and, his two knockdowns notwithstanding, landed a greater number of blows.”

    Nat Fleischer, scoring for The Ring, also saw it for Louis.

    Louis, unquestionably the puncher in the fight, landed more punches according to the Times. Whilst the newspaper men ringside tended to believe that Walcott had won, there were many who felt that the exact opposite was the case, including the men who mattered. Referee Ruby Goldstein scored it 7-6-2 for Walcott, judge Marty Monroe had it 9-6 to Louis and judge Frank Forbes had it 8-6-1 for the champion. The highlights we have available to us seem inconclusive with neither fighter really emerging as clearly the superior of the other. One, two and four can be scored for Walcott and three, nine, fourteen and fifteen for Louis.

    But even if we had the entire fight, all we would have is a modern eye trying to interpret a fight set in 1947 with their respect for the title, their heightened appreciation of aggression and disdain for retreat. Louis was the aggressor, the puncher, the champion, and according to at least one reputable source the busier man. More than that, there were few ringside scorecards that mimicked the degree of outrage expressed by the press.

    Over the years I’ve come to suspect that the decision was a reasonable one.

    I feel with certainty that this was no robbery. Walcott may have deserved the nod; he may not have; but either way it was close. Why, then, the controversy? It is a fact that the crowd booed Louis from the ring. This has lent credence to what has become a truth by repetition. Perhaps, like Louis himself, they were disgusted with the champion’s performance (disgust, according to Joe, that caused him to attempt to leave the ring before the verdict was even read). More likely, they had seen Louis bamboozled by an opponent that had seemed one step ahead of him throughout. But fights are not and were not scored upon aesthetics. If Louis was out-landing Walcott and enough of those punches carried enough vim to impress two of the three judges, the champion's job was done.

    Finally, the fight continued to garner attention in the press because the method for scoring boxing itself was on trial. Whilst Walcott had been awarded points for his two knockdowns in rounds one and four on the supplementary system, they had in reality only gained him two rounds on the cards and whilst judge Forbes actually awarded Louis more rounds, he awarded Walcott more points. When there seemed even a hint of a chance that the decision could be overturned on a technicality (it was claimed that Forbes should have reversed his decision based upon general impressions, permitted in a case where a judge awards more points but fewer rounds to a given fighter) the controversy continued to burn.

    And it would burn until Louis doused it with an eleventh-round knockout of Walcott some six months later. But I think he deserved his win of December 1947, too, or at least I don’t consider that he was firmly beaten as the legend says. It was a close fight—so close that perhaps even a handful of punches could have turned it.
     
  4. Woller1

    Woller1 Member Full Member

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    I have never had a problem with Louis winning a close decision.
     
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  5. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Active Member Full Member

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    Using the cards the conclusion is similar.
    Walcott is clearly the superior in rounds 1, 2, 4 and 12, while Louis wins 3, 6, 14 and 15 on all three cards, which makes them dead even with 7 undecided rounds left to spare.

    Now this is something I challenged near the end of the post. Forbes could appreciate Walcott's retreating counter punching style when he awarded Jersey Joe the first Elmer Ray fight, despite the two other judges giving it to Ray.
    Monroe similarly awarded Ezzard Charles the first fight with Ray despite the other two judges disagreeing with him, and based on the description on Boxrec, Charles had to do some holding and surviving against the ever advancing Ray.

    If booing crowds meant you lost the fight, Larry Holmes never won a fight in his prime. Louis was expected to crush the less renowned Walcott and almost ended up getting knocked out by him. Considering that Louis didn't return the favor of knocking Walcott down, it's understandable why the crowd was disappointed with the decision after Walcott shocked them not once, but twice and was never in grave danger throughout the fight, repeated jabs to the face be damned.
     
  6. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Active Member Full Member

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    Thanks Saintpat, agreed.
     
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  7. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Active Member Full Member

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    Unfortunately for many, it's a grave sin. Louis is only allowed to win via crushing knockout. If he ever happens to be behind before stopping the opponent or wins a decision then that means he was befuddled, out-boxed and his opponent got robbed/got dumb and lost their lead etc. etc.
     
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  8. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Of course it was a robbery. 70% of writers who saw it thought so...you would expect 30% to vote for Louis if he dropped dead in the middle of the ring. Louis himself made a number of comments indicating that he knew he lost, like when someone asked him if Walcott was a bum he replied, "no, I am."

    Louis was a great fighter. No need to make excuses for a bad fight.
     
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  9. themaster458

    themaster458 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    From what I saw in the video of the fight seemed like a pretty clear Walcott win but admittedly it was only a small part of the fight but Louis looked pretty befuddled and unable to do much while Walcott was hitting him with constant counter right hands.
     
  10. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Active Member Full Member

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    No one is making excuses for anyone. If Walcott had won based on my criteria of judging the scorecards, i would have showed it in the post.
    No need to skew the poll by the way, 16 of the writers at the venue saw it in favor of Louis, 24 in favor of Walcott, that's 40% for Louis, 60% for Walcott.
    You just ignored the entire post and parroted the same opinion you've been parroting for ages. The judges had no evident bias towards Louis as I demonstrated. Forbes gave Louis the least amount of points in his match against Charles. He gave Walcott the most amount of points in his loss against Ray (more than Ray).
    Monroe scored 7-4 in favor of Conn in 1941, he awarded the least amount of rounds to Louis in that fight, but I guess he'd score it for him even if "he dropped dead in the middle of the ring". Some stellar argumentation right here.
    Btw hasn't Mcvey already shared a ton of quotes from Louis saying he won the fight, right after the bout and years later? I could have sworn i've seen you two argue over this before.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2024
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  11. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Active Member Full Member

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    The available fight footage shows 15 minutes of fighting out of the 45 minutes that the whole fight should be. That's 70% of the footage missing, and even still, you can give Louis several rounds based on the highlights to make it a close fight.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2024
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  12. themaster458

    themaster458 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I don't think you can give him a single round based on footage tbh
     
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I see this as being more of a controversial decision than a robbery.

    A majority of ringsiders had it for Walcott, which we have to respect, while also respecting the significant minority who had if for Louis.

    The New York Times provided some rudimentary punch stats, and claimed that Louis out landed Walcott.

    Since Louis was the aggressor, this would imply that a decision for Walcott, relied heavily upon his defense.

    There is nothing wrong with giving the fight to Walcott based on defense, but that does point to there being at least a viable argument for Louis.

    Bottom line, we need to watch the entire fight.
     
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  14. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Active Member Full Member

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    Think again, posters above already mentioned how hey saw the fight highlights and scored rounds 3, 9, 14 and 15 for Louis, which checks out with the actual score cards where rounds 3, 14 and 15 were given to Louis by all three judging officials.
     
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  15. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Mcvey posted a more extensive list and it was more like 70%-30-%, I think, maybe 65%-35%, but it was more than 60-40.

    I think you are talking complete bollox, here. Saying that we can infer differently from the people who actually saw it when we haven't seen it is as delusional is it gets. And you are saying that the reporters were going by the highlight reel--where did that come from.

    You have in know what proven that there was not a bias towards Louis.