Benny Leonard vs Vasyl Lomachenko primes

Teo would potentially have been a middleweight back then.

 

This might come down to the gloves and rule set. Lomachenko wouldn’t like tiny gloves and roughhousing.

 

With the thought of Loma's soviet style being unique to Leonard's time and as a result causing frutstration, would something similar apply to fighters like Gans and the Gibbons clan competing today? Their styles are basically extinct and you won't find something much like em today, but they worked and worked against the best.

 

Would they be possible to implement with the rules of today?

 

I reckon Lomachenko is one of the few boxers today proficient inside.

 

I doubt that but lets say that's true objectively speaking size does have an effect and objectively we can agree fighters today are much bigger then they were in the past

He did have some difficulty with it in the first fight but adapted well but again I don't think think Tendler compares well to modern southpaws who are much better and more fluid as well as much better at southpaw things like hand fighting and establishing foot position.

Name a single boxer in Leonard's time who had this "Russian aristoricratic style" Soviet style is unique and you didn't really get to see it in the pro league until the fall of the USSR.

You're making a huge assumption here of which there is 0 proof

I think it would Johnny Dundee might have similar attributes (of which I doubt tbh but lets say we agree) he did not have Loma's style or technique which is unique to him and you can't just assume that because Leonard can deal with someone like Dundee he can deal with Loma that's not how boxing works Loma would be something completely unique and not something Leonard is used to dealing with.

There is obviously something unique there is no fighter in history like Loma now whether Leonard can adapt and deal with him as well as everything else that Loma brings is a different question

 

You are wasting your time with the, “evolution” crowd. They behave as though Boxing is a series of iPhone generations.

 

As opposed to you old timers who think any fighter in the past would beat the best fighters of today with one arm?

 

Salido

 

No, but if you pratice a thing much more you generally get better and better in the "invisible" boxing tricks and IQ.

Boxing today is about fitness, I, for once, disagree with the old timers regarding physical evolution, IMO it is drastically more evolved today, and to a extent it is about PEDs but let´s not go there.... a guy like Lomachenko is a insane athlete, super world class..... athlete, but I can see very easily that he has not the same depth in his boxing experience... (compared with someone like Benny Leonard, Harry Greb, Ray Robinson etc), not only those fought more but they sparred much more.

 

Maybe but his amateur experience surpasses all of theirs which has to count for something he is probably the best amateur ever

 

Perhaps the best ever vs just a good fighter? The difference in class would be absurd.

 

>Best amateur ever
>Just a good fighter
Sure bro clearly know what you're talking about

 

I'd personally say so, in fact the style of the Gibbons bros probably impacted boxing more than any other style. It was nicknamed the 'St. Paul style' as that was where it was derived from; the style centred around drawing leads with feints and head movement in order to create openings for counters. The hands would be kept free and down and the chin would largely be exposed in order to open the opponent up to counters, when done well this style is one of the most beautiful to watch;

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Gene Tunney also largely took inspiration from the Gibbons brothers;

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With regard to Gans, he does everything a modern boxer does but looks like an alien doing it. He's like a weird lovechild of Mayweather and Fitzsimmons stylistically. Great defense, timing, measurement of distance, jabbing, countering, but he just looks weird doing it with that arched back stance. It's effective, but alien.

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'I doubt that but lets say that's true objectively speaking size does have an effect and objectively we can agree fighters today are much bigger then they were in the past'

Of course size has an effect, I did not claim otherwise. However the size of older boxers in lighter weight divisions are often misunderstood and overlooked in matchups like this. Loma and Leonard probably weigh around the same; Leonard was usually almost 140 in his welterweight matchups and in those matchups he was also outsized. I heard Loma was 137 in the ring against Rigondeaux and 145 in the ring against Haney, he was probably at his peak against Rigo though so in this context I don't think size effects the fight. If you're referring to how Loma has won despite being undersized as a reason for an advantage, I think it's also relevant to say that while Leonard never faced someone as big as Haney or Lopez, he has also overcame weight disparities of his own and did not test himself against fighters as big as them.

'He did have some difficulty with it in the first fight but adapted well but again I don't think think Tendler compares well to modern southpaws who are much better and more fluid as well as much better at southpaw things like hand fighting and establishing foot position.'

I don't think Tendler looks great either, but I feel like the biggest part of that has to do with the fact that Leonard's movement, feinting, jabbing and overall IQ gave him no opportunities to display himself best. The man he was fighting was just too damn good, in some ways too good for him to make a good account of himself which we've seen from many great fighters. What we do know is his success against the best of his time; which was one of the deepest divisions in history.

'Name a single boxer in Leonard's time who had this "Russian aristoricratic style" Soviet style is unique and you didn't really get to see it in the pro league until the fall of the USSR., you're making a huge assumption here of which there is 0 proof'

True, but you're pretty much doing the same thing in assuming that Soviet style boxing would be completely unique to that era, and also in assuming historical Russian boxing wasn't likely very similar to this Soviet style. We don't really need film to make this assumption considering no significant development in styles (that I know of) were documented by the Soviets between the time boxing was outlawed to when the USSR really began promoting it. Russian athletes consistently migrated and came in contact with European and North American countries to gain more traction and get better opportunities, there was even a Russian boxing national championship event in 1914 so who genuinely knows how much it's developed since.

'I think it would Johnny Dundee might have similar attributes (of which I doubt tbh but lets say we agree) he did not have Loma's style or technique which is unique to him and you can't just assume that because Leonard can deal with someone like Dundee he can deal with Loma that's not how boxing works Loma would be something completely unique and not something Leonard is used to dealing with.'

That's pretty much exactly how match up assessments in boxing work; we use the closest stylistic equivalence that each opponent has to the other with regard to their opponents and judge how they'd perform against each other from the results. My point would be that Loma is not completely unique to Leonard due to the fact that Dundee had great speed, an awkward but effective use of footwork and fundamentals at the elite level, had significant volume, great defense and good shot selection and timing. Sure, he's not the exact stylistic equivalent to Loma but he is the best we have in seeing how Leonard would deal with someone similar to Lomachenko and his best qualities.

'There is obviously something unique there is no fighter in history like Loma now whether Leonard can adapt and deal with him as well as everything else that Loma brings is a different question'

What about Loma's style do you think makes him significantly unique to the time? I agree that his style would not be what boxers were used to seeing, but what about his style do you think makes him especially unique compared to that time period? With how experimental a lot of old boxers were, due in large part to those smaller gloves and rules, you'd be surprised how diverse their opposition is in that regard. Maybe they'd even have more experience against Soviet-like fighters than someone like Louis or Marciano would due to how stacked and stylistically diverse the smaller divisions were. Dundee boxes like an unorthodox freak himself but still does it so well with his speed, shot selection and timing;

https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comments/132lilh/the_only_footage_we_have_of_featherweight_legend/

 

@themaster458 is a good poster and he brings up some good points in most of the posts I've seen from him, even if I largely disagree. I don't think he's the 'lalala can't hear u' type of modernist.