Who wouldve taken Listons crown had Ali not been born?

Leotis Martin.

 

Martin was December 69 and lost 4 out of 6 fights from August 67 until to September 68 so his title shot would have probably had to come sometime later but by the same token he didn't do much after those losses so i'm not sure he'd ever get a shot.

Frazier would have been ready to roll end of 68 so even if Martin did get a late shot the scenario would be dependent on Liston beating Frazier beforehand.

I think it's too many ducks to line up?

 

Even though Frazier makes perfect sense to me, when someone says something like Ellis, I am thinking that some seemingly unlikely guys in retrospect might expose Liston's vulnerability from age and it shouldn't be that surprising in that event. Keep in mind, when Liston fought Zech directly after Ali, the German had wobbled Liston several times and was leading on all cards when he got the KO, and practically couldn't miss Liston with the uppercut, and completely out-maneuvered him. Oh, I know what you're going to say, "Boxed, you're making that up!" and, yes, I am, but making things up is just an alternate way to express a greater truth. And if expressing truth has become outlawed on this forum, then why even have a forum?

 

Eddie Machen had no fear of him and had a uselessly injured right when they did square off. When Sonny failed to intimidate, he found trouble, especially against a former opponent. I think Machen, with the same right hand he used to floor big Nino Valdez for the count with a body shot from, closes the deal in a title rematch. A return go does take place, as Eddie was the one guy who proved he could hang with Sonny at that point in time. Liston got extremely inactive after their match in Seattle, while Machen was clocking in rounds and bouts.

 

The opinion that an aging Liston would lose to opponents who would otherwise seem unlikely as victors certainly isn't unfounded. I think that most of us have simply said Frazier because he would be the best man in the division at the time- So even if someone conquers Sonny before him, Joe will no doubt beat them and gain the crown after such. Frazier is the most common answer because it makes the most sense to us, but I could still definitely see men like Oscar Bonavena, Jimmy Ellis, or Jerry Quarry getting to him first. I wouldn't bet on Mildenberger because of his lack of power, as well as his lowered left hand.

 

Ellis wouldn’t beat Liston’s corpse.

 

I too don't think that Ellis would beat up a dead man.

 

Hear me out:

Floyd Patterson would have gotten Liston by their fourth or fifth fight.

He was just starting to get the hang of it in the second fight when he slipped on a banana peel.

 

Floyd Patterson did stay relevant in the division for a long time after the Liston losses, and Floyd may have even improved in some areas. If Floyd had managed to do a Leotis Martin on Sonny at some point, oh how that would have improved his standing!

 

I do think it's a pretty reasonable assumption to make. Think about how we talk about Floyd post title reign as compared to Sonny, one progressed as the other declined.

 

Liston was wrong for Frazier. Too strong for Joe, who would have tried unsuccessfully to fight Sonny on the inside while trying to connect with left hooks to the body and head I like Ellis to upset Liston because he could knock guys out with his right hand and Sonny was vulnerable to right hands thrown over his left jab.

 

Pick one. Liston was getting long in the tooth . Some young go getter going to go do the job post 65

 

I visualise Ernie Terrell outpointing an old Sonny.

 

An injured Machen did pretty good - was he that much better? Heck Ellis thinking about it has a comparable resume to Liston - Quarry is a better name then Liston ever claimed IMO then there’s Bonavena, Mathis, Chuvalo, Leotis, Patterson all comparable to Folley, Machen, Williams and (younger) Patterson. Not bad for a blown up 160lber.

 

As he matured, he became more confident in his own skin and also his fighting imo.
The older Floyd was a world removed from the one that lost to Ingo.